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General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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feeling_better
 
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My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby feeling_better on Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:21 pm

Ever since I started using Swift LT about a month ago, this has become my best mask. It had solved all except 3 problems for me. It has significant rainout, the belt in the back slips up for me, and it sometimes has intermittent whistling noises most likely from the out port orifices. Of course we are all different with different sensitivities to noise and head shape and room humidity/temperature, so some people may not have any of the above. This one describes how I fixed the rain out. Even a drop of water entering my nose at night will ruin the sleep for me for an hour :(

Do you need all that much humidity you use currently? We may be pushing in too much humidity. The first step is to set your heated humidifier to the lowest required for your comfort. Some of you can just use pass over humidification (heater turned off), or no humidifier at all. BTW, even the lowest humidity setting of a particular HH may be too high for some, but they still need humidification. This was the case for me with my M-series Auto integrated HH. I did a simple fix for reducing the amount of humidification in any given settings as described in this post:
viewtopic/t34848/Mseries-integrated-HH-Electronics.html#p298553

Some people use some type of hose insulation, which will reduce rain out; but my fix below works for me without hose insulation. Note that there can also be some condensation from the out breath; for those who keep the hose over their head may have rain out even without any humidifier at all, if the room temperature is pretty low, especially if they use low cpap pressures.

This is how I fixed the rain out. I put in a cotton wick inside the nasal pillow. The figures below show the construction of the wick and how it is used.


Image
One inch wide bias tape used in sewing (somewhat thick woven cotton cloth) about 5" long is used as the wicking medium. A little shorter length of about 17 gauge nylon string (used in tennis rackets) is used as a stiffener, to make it easy to keep the wick stay towards the outer edges of the pillow.


Image
The cloth tape is foldef over into two or three layers, and sewn along the length. Now the nylon string is pushed into the inside. I tied both ends with a piece of string to prevent the nylon stiffener from slipping out. That it it. I always boil any material I use for wicking, to get rid of any sizing or other coatings, and to make the first night wicking better. Now it is time to insert this into the Swift LT cushion.


Image
The wick above is a little bit short to cover the entire perimeter of the cushion. I keep the open ends at the top, since the condensed water will be at the bottom, and it is usually from here that the water enters the nostrils.

Image

Image

When I wash the cushions every morning, I take out the wick and wash it and dry it till the evening.
M-series Auto A-flex in Cflex mode, HOME-MADE HH (replacing the integrated HH), Swift LT nasal pillows with outport control

danw61
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby danw61 on Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:51 pm

Great Idea!! :idea: Thanks!

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Mask: Swift™ LT Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: M Series Heated Humidifier
Software: Encore Smart Card Reader - USB
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freepostg
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby freepostg on Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:39 pm

Great idea. It's too bad resmed couldn't have figured this problem into the manufacturing of this great mask. I'm sure they would have held trials/studies et al. Perhaps they should be supplying this sort of thing for those that like a higher level of humidity. just my thoughts.

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Machine: S9 Elite™ CPAP Machine with EPR™
Mask: Swift™ LT Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Also S8 Elite w/humidifier

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feeling_better
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby feeling_better on Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:45 pm

freepostg wrote:Great idea. It's too bad resmed couldn't have figured this problem into the manufacturing of this great mask. I'm sure they would have held trials/studies et al. Perhaps they should be supplying this sort of thing for those that like a higher level of humidity. just my thoughts.


I know somebody who is willing to make these and ship to people for a small price, in small quantities... What should that person charge for one of these? For a pair of these?
M-series Auto A-flex in Cflex mode, HOME-MADE HH (replacing the integrated HH), Swift LT nasal pillows with outport control

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rested gal
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby rested gal on Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:57 pm

Very good pictures and description of your work -- earns you a Lab Rat Award! :)

Image

Looks like your wick would soak up moisture in the Swift LT's pillows the same way Gerald's previous award winning idea worked in the Headrest's pillows:
viewtopic.php?t=33832

Yours will be added to the Swift LT fixes on the Lab Rat Awards page:
LINKS to Lab Rat Trophy awards
viewtopic.php?t=15104

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freepostg
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby freepostg on Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:12 pm

Last point and I'm sure well mentioned in the past but....just in case..forgive me as I am relatively new but...I now compensate for the rainout with my LT by ensuring the hose is "under the covers" -in fall/winter /and spring - the sheet/blanket and goose down duvet. Keep in mind, I live in Northern Ontario where the Winter has a tendency to be somewhat long.
I find that doing this, although it sounds cumbersome, controls rainout to a greater extent as the hose is kept at probably above 80 degrees-- I'm sure-(note how I used Fahrenheit rather than Celsius for our American friends). My hose is covered with Resmed's standard hose cover as well.
Prior to doing this, I had problems with rainout with my swift II let alone the LT..which as has been noted, has major rainout issues...which I personally feel is caused by it's smaller profile and limited exhaust..(mho)-my humble opinion! :D
Regards,

_________________
Machine: S9 Elite™ CPAP Machine with EPR™
Mask: Swift™ LT Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Also S8 Elite w/humidifier

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Gerald
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby Gerald on Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:31 pm

Elvis....

I think what Feeling_Better has discovered is that there are (2) major sources of rainout.

Most of us are very careful to insulate with hose covers....and keep our bedroom temperature high enough so that a lot of condensation doesn't form inside the hose.

The other source of condensation....is moisture that forms as a result of exhaled breath. That moisture usually forms inside the nose-piece.....very close to the nares....and if enough tiny droplets can get together, they'll form one or two big drops that wake us up......and cause instant profanity.

The wick inside the nose-piece will absorb a couple of big drops....caused by exhaled breath. It isn't designed, however, to capture major condensation inside the hose.

Gerald

lmmo
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby lmmo on Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:48 pm

Sounds neat. I do have 2 snuggle hose covers even over the swift hose piece. My condensation is solely in the barrel of the nose piece. Frustrating. I have notified Resmed as well. I love this mask, though.

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Additional Comments: chinstrap works for me too! Pad-a cheek, Pur-Sleep, Pap-Cap, Snugglehose

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freepostg
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby freepostg on Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:25 am

Gerald wrote:Elvis....

I think what Feeling_Better has discovered is that there are (2) major sources of rainout.

Most of us are very careful to insulate with hose covers....and keep our bedroom temperature high enough so that a lot of condensation doesn't form inside the hose.

The other source of condensation....is moisture that forms as a result of exhaled breath. That moisture usually forms inside the nose-piece.....very close to the nares....and if enough tiny droplets can get together, they'll form one or two big drops that wake us up......and cause instant profanity.

The wick inside the nose-piece will absorb a couple of big drops....caused by exhaled breath. It isn't designed, however, to capture major condensation inside the hose.

Gerald


Gerald....
I'm quite aware of what Feeling_Better has discovered (by the post) and am quite impressed by his/her findings and information along with this incredible idea. As well, I realize that most are very careful to insulate with hose covers along with keeping room temps higher to alleviate condensation. What I'm saying is that I was able to limit condensation by lowering humidity (slightly) and keep the hose under the covers. I do however realize that many have tried this in the past to no avail with the Lt.
Had this not worked for me, I would either endeavor to utilize Feeling_Better's fabulous creation or switch back to my swift II.

test

_________________
Machine: S9 Elite™ CPAP Machine with EPR™
Mask: Swift™ LT Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Also S8 Elite w/humidifier

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Gerald
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby Gerald on Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:10 am

Elvis.........

We're all looking at....and trying to solve the same problems. What I'm trying to get across...is that we have (2) problems....they're related....and one can make the other worse.

If we solve the "Hose Condensation" problem by insulating it, turning down the humidifier heat, and turning up the room heat....we solve probably 90% of the problem. Nearly all of us do that.

However, it's that last 10% of the condensation problem.......the "Exhaled Breath Condensation" that forms inside the nose piece.......that's what Feeling_Better is addressing.

That last 10%....the part that allows (1) big drop to form....that's the problem that causes ugly curse words in the middle of the night.

When we take very careful measures to solve the "Hose Condensation" (90%) problem, we quite often prevent the "big drop or two" from forming. Feeling_Better is adding a "small, final prevention system" to address the "Exhaled Breath" condensation problem.

Gerald

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freepostg
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby freepostg on Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:27 am

Once again, an absolutely fabulous idea. I have a lot of respect, as most do, for Resmed and their incredible solutions. You would think they would have this one covered as it's been quite a problem since the recent release of this great mask.
Although, I do realize that all great companies require the support of those that patronize it. This invention/idea is a splendid example of just that.
I too have woken many times and spewed "ugly vulgarity"-(as the young fellow down south has referred to) due the infamous - "last drop". Whether it's caused by exhaled breath or the overall physics behind air temp/relative humidity etc-Who Knows...fortunately, I seemed to have currently solved my problem with the LT. That said, I am going to attempt to fashion feeling_better's invention ----just in case! :wink:

_________________
Machine: S9 Elite™ CPAP Machine with EPR™
Mask: Swift™ LT Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Also S8 Elite w/humidifier

PaulyWally
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby PaulyWally on Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:09 pm

If you're willing to spend the $$$ I highly recommend a SleepZone heated hose that will work with all PAP units because it has it's own power supply. These are available from the SleepZone supplier (in Australia) and from online suppliers (like cpapusa) in North America. Since starting to use this product I've not had a single rainout event. The advantage to this is that you do not have to fiddle with room temperature or hose management which, for me, was crucial since I much prefer a cool/cold room. One caution - if you are in North America you want to order the product with code SZ4 and NOT SZ2 or SZ4I

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feeling_better
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby feeling_better on Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:46 pm

freepostg wrote:Last point and I'm sure well mentioned in the past but....just in case..forgive me as I am relatively new but...I now compensate for the rainout with my LT by ensuring the hose is "under the covers" -in fall/winter /and spring - the sheet/blanket and goose down duvet. Keep in mind, I live in Northern Ontario where the Winter has a tendency to be somewhat long.
I find that doing this, although it sounds cumbersome, controls rainout to a greater extent as the hose is kept at probably above 80 degrees-- I'm sure-(note how I used Fahrenheit rather than Celsius for our American friends). My hose is covered with Resmed's standard hose cover as well.
Prior to doing this, I had problems with rainout with my swift II let alone the LT..which as has been noted, has major rainout issues...which I personally feel is caused by it's smaller profile and limited exhaust..(mho)-my humble opinion! :D
Regards,

freepostg, Thank you for reminding me of this. I had also done this some ago, it definitely does help! I will add this to my original post among the collection of ideas mentioned as people already doing!

I want the hose go up over my head. With this routing, I found it difficult to keep the hose under the covers. Which way do you route the hose? Over your head or straight down?
M-series Auto A-flex in Cflex mode, HOME-MADE HH (replacing the integrated HH), Swift LT nasal pillows with outport control

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freepostg
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby freepostg on Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:01 pm

feeling_better wrote:freepostg, Thank you for reminding me of this. I had also done this some ago, it definitely does help! I will add this to my original post among the collection of ideas mentioned as people already doing!

I want the hose go up over my head. With this routing, I found it difficult to keep the hose under the covers. Which way do you route the hose? Over your head or straight down?


Great point. Hose is to either one of the two sides depending upon which side I am sleeping on..not over my head. I have the autoset on the ground beside the bed with the hose going up, under the covers and more or less over my body. I'm a side sleeper and find no trouble with this setup. I only started doing this when I obtained the LT as I had rainout in the mask itself almost immediately as you had pointed out. I figured because I don't have a heated hose cover, I'll do the next best thing and heat the whole thing with my body...which has unbelievably stopped all condensation forming in the mask itself. My humidifier is an H3 and I have it set either half way or a little warmer than half..this by the way is enough humidity for me. The room is currently around 41-45% relative humidity --temp at night around 67.
Honestly, I was quite surprised that it worked considering the mask's high tendency to develop droplets within.
Thanks again for taking the time to create such a neat idea. I'm wondering what Winter will bring as our room temp will be lower still at that time...by then, I have a feeling that I my have to resort to what you've created.
thanks again Feeling_better!

_________________
Machine: S9 Elite™ CPAP Machine with EPR™
Mask: Swift™ LT Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Also S8 Elite w/humidifier

looking4zzzz
 
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Re: My fix for rainout (condensation) in Swift LT nasal pillow

Postby looking4zzzz on Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:03 pm

This is just a thought, but would putting in a piece of cotton shoelace accomplish the same thing? I was thinking that it would avoid the need for sewing anything, and might be an appropriate size. I didn't know how important the bendy-wire part is...would the shoelace just fall without the wire part to hold it up a bit? Just wondering...

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Mask: Hybrid Full Face CPAP Mask with Nasal Pillows and Headgear
Humidifier: M Series Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: have also tried, Quattro FFM, ZZZ-mask FFM, Comfortgel Nasal, Mirage Swift LT, Profile Lite, Ultra Mirage II nasal, and Nasal Aire II

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