So I want the software because.......

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Snoredog
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Re: So I want the software because.......

Post by Snoredog » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:16 am

Country4ever wrote:Hi again,
My brain is rotting these days, and I need to make lists of questions/comments when I go to the various doctors. T
omorrow I see my sleep doc and he'll say some things that bother me (like he doesn't really look at leak rates) and I want to be able to sound half way (I'll settle for 1/4) intelligent.
I understand totally why leaks are important.
But remind me why I want the software...........so I can see if leaks are huge just a couple times versus little ones all night long?? ........so I can see if my snoring is associated with apnea??? What else?
I would like to give him specific info that the software would give me, that he's not giving me now.
I'm also asking these questions so I can give him a reason why I'd like him to print me out a copy of the longer version of the stats. I just don't want to sound like an idiot.
Yes, I know I can do all this without him, but I would like to maintain a relationship with him, if he behaves himself.
Thanks for your input.
You don't really need the software for that machine. Software is NOT going to tell much of anything more worth while over what you already get from the LCD display.

The machine does NOT provide snore details, it only supplies that with the optional Reslink module, last time it was sold here it was over $1200+ only more waste of money.

The only thing you need is Leak info, 95% pressure found, HI and AI information. You get all that already from the display. It is what you do with that data that counts. If you want to plot or track your results input that data into a spreadsheet and plot it in a graph.

That machine is only going to respond to apnea up to 10 cm pressure. So if your pressure is going over that and it is set up with a range, it is either Flow Limitation or Snore driving that pressure up. The software is NOT going to report FL or Snore data.

So the only thing you can do is look at AI information about apnea. If it is above 1 you increase the Minimum pressure until it drops to acceptable levels, then you continue with fine pressure adjustments until HI drops below 5, when you get the avg. SUM (AHI) of both below 5 you are doing the best you can ever expect from that machine.
someday science will catch up to what I'm saying...

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Post by GumbyCT » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:01 pm

Country4ever wrote: I have learned that (through seeing sooooooo many doctors), that some of them have alot to offer, some have nothing to offer, but some of them have intermittant things to offer. I have had doctors who disappoint me with some of their knowledge, but extremely helpful with other knowledge.
Am I mistaken to be of the opinion that you were/are married to a doctor of some sort or have one in your family? I thought I remembered a post were you mentioned that.

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Post by wlenz » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:41 pm

My family GP has been my primary doc for years. He has been treating my hypertension with two different blood pressure meds. My bp was 140/90 and he was happy with that. I suggested sleep apnea and he did not feel it was an area to investigate. If your favorite tool is a hammer, then all problems look like nails. His favorite tool was pills. I finally insisted on a sleep test, I have osa and am now on a bipap. My bp has dropped to 110/70. I still go to my doc, he knows more than me about health, but sometimes the patient has to push for what we suspect to be best for us.
Now I have a sleep doc. I like him and he listens to me. But, he does not have a card reader, software, and will not give me an Rx for a better bipap that will provide this data to me. I suggested that I print the info out and bring it in. He prefers additional overnight sleep studies. Most members of this group understand that collecting a lot if info over a longer period is more accurate. My insurance company paid for my bipap and I will have to pay out of pocket for a better machine. It would be nice if a patient could get the best care possible without doing all this research online and getting help from friends, (cpaptalk members) but that is life. I still like my docs, they listen to me. And they know more than me. But, I know ME better than they know ME. So, I will help them when I can


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Post by Country4ever » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:22 pm

Gumby.....just curious what that has to do with this? He's not a sleep doc.
I can find docs very frustrating and still be married to one, can't I?

Snoredog........so you're saying that the software for my Resmed Auto Vantage (unless I bought the Reslink module) won't give me the type of info that others on here have shown as a graph that shows snoring, leaks, pressures, etc.?
I check my machine stats every morning. I think I just need to fix my leak. Knowing when and where the leaks are is sort of usless. They have to be from my mouth or nose, and they're probably from my mouth.
The information you've given me is what I needed to know for the doctor's.
Thank you.
Funny how a simple question has taken such a turn.

I'm not one to trust any doc. We all have different experiences with them, and different approaches to try to get what we want/need.

I get a bit frustrated when people jump on someone for not immediately throwing their doc out the window.

Too many assumptions made based on one's own experience.

My doc could be really frustrated with me too because I haven't tried a full face mask since the last visit. He could throw me out as a patient because I didn't try a medicine he gave me for my alpha wave intrusion. He's being patient with me, just as I am being patient with him. It doesn't mean it will last forever,but like I said.......I'm not done giving him a chance to help me out.

Life is too complex to assume everyone's situation is the same as your's.

I do get alot of good info here. But I still need him, and I'm just not ready to throw him overboard yet, since I think he has potential.

Even if he isn't perfect, he's open to my suggestions and questions. I think that's a really important (and rare) quality in a doc.


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Post by DreamStalker » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:42 pm

It will give you everything Encore Pro does except snoring.

SnoreDog has to se snore data cuz ... well ... he's SnoreDog

President-pretender, J. Biden, said "the DNC has built the largest voter fraud organization in US history". Too bad they didn’t build the smartest voter fraud organization and got caught.

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Post by GumbyCT » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:04 pm

Country4ever wrote:Gumby.....just curious what that has to do with this? He's not a sleep doc.
I can find docs very frustrating and still be married to one, can't I?
I guess that means yes and I was just trying to help you BUT you can consider that event terminated with cause.

Boy, seems like all the sleep deprived people are ALL in the same forum.

ta taah gf

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Last edited by GumbyCT on Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Snoredog » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:07 pm

Country4ever wrote: Snoredog........so you're saying that the software for my Resmed Auto Vantage (unless I bought the Reslink module) won't give me the type of info that others on here have shown as a graph that shows snoring, leaks, pressures, etc.?
That is exactly what I am saying. You won't gain enough information from those reports to help you improve on your therapy over what is already available to you from the LCD display.

1. Control leak using the data and compare mask and pressure.
2. Observe AI information, if it is above 1 you can get it lower by adjusting the Minimum pressure up or down. Get AI below 1 (i.e. .8 or .6) then you work on lowering HI.
3. Further fine tune pressure to get HI down below 5. That is then all you can expect to gain from that machine.
4. If your pressure requirement is over 10 cm, the machine will then only respond to Flow Limitation and Snore above that. AI has to be manually eliminated by manipulation of the Minimum pressure.

Maybe someone can put up a sample Rescan report or what ever they are calling it today and you can see for yourself.

It does NOT display sleep data like the Encore reports you have seen here with separate graphs for leak, snore, AI, HI, FL and NR.

someday science will catch up to what I'm saying...

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Post by Velbor » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:12 pm

It has often been asked whether or not software is either necessary or useful, as opposed to simply recording information from a data-capable xPAP machine’s LCD screen. This is an edited compilation of several of my previous posts; a long but hopefully a useful, informative and comprehensive summary.

My comments focus primarily on ResMed AutoPAP machines. There are a number of forum members who, for a variety of reasons, don’t think much of ResMed machines in general, and who, for reasons sometimes valid and sometimes superfluous, disparage ResMed software. Certainly, ResMed software is imperfect, occasionally frustrating, and does not provide many types of information which I would like to see. But I know of NO perfect software for ANY application, CPAP or otherwise.

Much here is also applicable to other machine and software brands. For Respironics in particular, machine and software give 90th centile data, rather than 95th centile information as ResMed does.

===== What the LCD screen provides

From a data-capable ResMed machine's LCD you get six datum for each night:
--- AHI, AI, HI,
--- machine time,
--- 95th centile pressure, and
--- 95th centile leak.

All that AHI, AI and HI tell you is how many times per hour you have respiratory events. Such simple metrics do not adequately summarize a complex situation. They do not tell you whether each event lasts 10 seconds, or 50 seconds. They do not tell you whether most events are clumped together (more likely to lead to oxygen desaturation and cardiovascular issues) or whether the events are spread out (more likely to cause multiple disruptions of sleep).

The 95th centile pressure is useful (primarily in an AutoPAP machine set “wide open”) for deciding on a starting point for a single constant CPAP pressure, or on a “better” lower-limit AutoPAP pressure. But it does not tell you what your “typical” pressure is through the night (median pressure) or how high the machine actually takes you (maximum pressure).

The 95th centile leak rate seems to me almost useless. Much more important is what your leak is doing “most of the time” (median leak), and whether your worst leak (maximum leak) exceeds the machine's capacity to maintain therapy.

The statistics provided by the LCD screen are a useful starting point, and can help to track the pattern of how you are moving, but I propose that they alone are quite inadequate to tell you where you actually are. The additional statistics provided by the software are not trivial, and neither are the "squiggly lines" of the graphs.

===== What software adds

With the software you will also get, in addition to the LCD screen data, five more numbers:
--- percent of total time in apnea,
--- median and maximum pressure, and
--- median and maximum leak.

With the graphics provided by the software, you will also be able to see visually WHEN during the night your apneas and hypopneas and leaks occurred, and the DURATION of each apnea event.

The additional statistics, and the time-relationship of pressure, leak and respiratory disturbance provided by the software, can be highly informative. Software will also give you multi-night values for ALL of the statistics for any continuous date range, which can be useful for "before" and "after" comparisons relating to any change which may have been made. Percent-time-in-apnea is a much better indicator of overall oxygen deprivation than is AI alone.

===== The limitations of LCD data

It’s very important to understand just what the 95th centile data does and does not provide, in contrast to the median and maximum.

Assume you're on the machine for 8 hours (480 minutes). Assume that for "most of the time" your leak rate is a minimal 0.04 L/s. Assume that for a one half hour period, you have turned your head in such a way that the mask is displaced. Assume that during that time, your leak rate is 0.40 L/s for 15 minutes, and 0.60 L/s for 15 minutes. The 95th centile value (the lowest value for the highest 24 minutes of leak) - what you will see on the LCD - will be 0.40.

What does that tell you? It does NOT tell you that "most of the time" - 7.5 hours - your leak was an excellent 0.04. This is what the median leak will indicate. Nor does it tell you that for 15 minutes, your 0.60 leak may have exceeded the machine's ability to compensate and maintain therapeutic pressure. This is what the maximum leak will indicate. What does the 0.40 tell you? I would suggest, almost nothing useful. But the "squiggly lines" on the software graph, with one sharp spike lasting just half an hour, will tell you almost everything! The software - additional statistics and graphics - makes all the difference!

Similarly for pressure (assuming an AutoPAP setting; for straight CPAP all pressure statistics will be the same). The 95th centile pressure, the pressure AT or BELOW which your machine was blowing for 95% of the time, is useful in a forward-looking perspective for setting new machine pressures, but provides little relevant CURRENT physiologic or therapeutic information. On the other hand, you DO want to know what your “typical” pressure was through the night (the median). And you DO want to know whether your actual maximum pressure is “bumping up against” your machine’s maximum pressure setting. Once again, the graphs will tell show you when, how long, and how often.

===== ResMed software

ResMed’s older AutoScan software is generally no longer being sold. AutoScan v5.7, the last version issued, supports S7 machines, and the initial S8 machine models with their ResScan data cards. It has the advantage of being able to export minute-by-minute data to Excel, a capability which the ResScan software sadly did not retain.

ResScan software is needed to deal with newer S8 II family machines, and some of the more complex BiPAP and SV machines. ResScan v3.3 and v3.4 do NOT run under VISTA, while v3.5 is VISTA compatible. You will need to be sure which software version supports your particular xPAP machine; v3.3 does NOT support the S8 II family.

ResMed also offers an add-on ResLink module, for both S7 and S8 machines (the units are different – be sure you get the right one!). The null modem cable (for S7) and the ResScan card (for S8 ) provide data on a minute-by-minute basis. ResLink provides data every few seconds. I have not found that the ResLink adds very much of value, unless you want and/or need pulse and PO2 data. Pulse and oximetry add several hundred dollars (think about $600-$800) to the base cost of the ResLink unit self (think about $200).

===== Concluding thoughts

How much information do you really need? Without the basic information – pressure, apnea and hypopnea indices, and leak – you (and your clinician) have almost no way of knowing whether you are receiving effective treatment (other than a change in your subjective daytime symptoms). Almost all of the experienced posters on this board agree that a data-capable machine is a minimum necessity, to get these data from the LCD screen. There is somewhat less unanimity regarding the necessity of software. Many sleep physicians aren’t interested in looking at nightly data, but they do want to see all of the summary statistics which software provides.

Remember also that for many of us, these metrics are HIGHLY variable from night to night. Whether from the LCD or from software, you need to be sure to collect sufficient data (I don't trust less than 20 observations under the same conditions) and carefully look at averages, medians, ranges, temporal trends (resulting from unidentifiable variables) and possibly other relevant (or irrelevant) statistics.

Remember also that the numbers themselves are NOT important! What is ultimately important is:
--- the restorative quality of our sleep,
--- our “restedness” or “awakeness” the following day, and
--- the cardiovascular consequences of inadequately treated sleep apnea.
The numbers only provide clues as to whether current xPAP treatment is adequate, and can be helpful in optimizing the treatment.

Ultimately, it comes down to your temperament, and the cost. Do you want to be a partner with your clinical professionals, or leave everything to them? How much is it worth to you to have how thorough an understanding of what’s going on each night, and over time? How much can you afford to spend? How prepared are you to interpret and understand the data? And above all, what are you going to DO with the data? What difference will it make in your decisions and actions? Will having data, or not having data, be more likely to make you crazy???

Velbor


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Post by Country4ever » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:31 pm

Gumby........I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intentions with that question.
I AM going through an absolutely horrible time and maybe I'm short on patience. Sorry.
Thanks Snoredog and Velbor for your info.
Between fibromyalgia/menopause/sleep deprivation, I am truly feeling retarded. Truly. I can barely read and understand what everyone has said.
I'm going down the tubes...............

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Post by jnk » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:46 pm

Country4ever,

Don't get discouraged. You're doing great. You are asking good questions of people who are doing their best to be helpful, and you are thinking about the right things. Take it at your own pace.

Personally I am glad you are asking the questions you are, because I, and a lot of other silent ResMed users out here, are benefitting from your insightful questions and the great answers you are getting, including snoredog's short-hand, from the hip, to-the-bone quips that always make me think, and velbor's excellent summary that I have now copied and stored on my desktop for future reference whenever my mind is ready to think about software for my ResMed.

jnk


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Post by echo » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:19 pm

Hey Country4ever - don't get discouraged!!!

We all know it's difficult to digest all this (contradictory) info flying at you at the speed of light.

Take some time to mull things over- don't feel like you need to make a decision right away. Your sleep doc isn't going away, your CPAP isn't going anywhere... There are always alternative ways of doing things even if we miss deadlines or don't have it all together for the next appointment...
(just for fun here's what happened to me the other day : i went to the doc with the intention of asking for different tests for diabetes, after the 40 minute appointment I totally forgot to ask for them and ended up with only a referral to a dietician. I've been beating myself up ever since!)

Know that everyone here is trying to help, in their own way, even those who come across as having mean intentions.

Just take a DEEP breath and relax and think of yourself getting better and better every day.

And as JNK thoughtfully said - take it at your own pace.
Take a break from boards for a few days, that might help. Focus on the good things in life for a few minutes/days... get out of "let fix it mode" to "let's just be" mode. Sometimes we really do need to disconnect from trying to solve all these ills. Find a nice distraction for yourself for a couple of days, and when you come back to the problem - it will seem easier - or you'll have a different perspective - or at the very least you'll have been distracted for a while!

Anyway easier said than done I know!

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Post by mindy » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:51 pm

Hey Country,

What Echo said! And I do know that having a chronic condition like you do can be incredibly debilitating. It can make it difficult to do things others take for granted and feeling that way affects our thinking too.

Mindy

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Post by Country4ever » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:45 pm

Jnk, Mindy and Echo,
Thanks so much for your encouragement. It is definitely appreciated.
Once again, I'm having bizarre sensations that make me feel like I'm going to collapse or pass out. Just another day in fibromyalgia land, I guess.
I'm not even sure I can make it to the sleep doc's appointment tomorrow. Hopefully I can, so I will be able to make a little progress. I just don't know what to blame on the sleep deprivation or everything else.
Its one of those times when I feel like I'm free-falling down into a deep dark hole and I can't grab on to anything.
Thank you so much for your kindness.

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THANKS

Post by FoxNewsFan » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:14 pm

WOW Velbor, (and others)
Thanks for all the GREAT INFO.

I have the ResScan VPAP III ST machine, (got it because my pressure is 24), and I have just purchased the ResLink, ResScan and Oximeter and am in the process of getting it all set up. I will share all that I learn in a couple of weeks.

Having started my therepy almost 2 months ago, I feel great and have the energy I had 20 yrs. ago.

As Country has stated, my sleep doc also is unconcerned with leak rate. I have leaks all over the map, 19, 67, 91, etc. The sleep clinic recommended a FF mask but the sleep doc said he did not like them and wrote a script for a nasal.

The main reason I paid for the above RL, RS, and O is so I can see if my AHI and AI data is valid. I also want to see the leak graph so if I can see if my leak is small all night except 1 or 2 large leaks. I have purchased a FF mask and will try it after I see the data from the nasal.

I told my sleep doc all about what I learned about the above equipment from this forum and he was very receptive and interested but did not know anything about it. He wrote me a script for the above, but, as many of you know the ins. would not pay for it. He asked if I would bring in my laptop and show him the data.

Like Country, I am not ready to ditch my Sleep doc just because he doesn't know anything about the new technology. He is very knowledgable about many other topics. Also, I haven't been sucessful in locating a sleep doc who uses the data. I live on Eastern Long Island in NY.

Ed


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Re: THANKS

Post by Goofproof » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:05 pm

FoxNewsFan wrote: As Country has stated, my sleep doc also is unconcerned with leak rate. I have leaks all over the map, 19, 67, 91, etc. The sleep clinic recommended a FF mask but the sleep doc said he did not like them and wrote a script for a nasal.

Ed
Leak rate is important as important as the correct pressure.

The reason for the Nasal mask, cheaper and more profit, Plus later if it doesn't work for you, they can soak you for the FF mask, If you can only get one mask a good fitting FF Mask gives you a better chance of success. (No Mouthbreathing problems & helps cover congestion issues.) Jim
Use data to optimize your xPAP treatment!

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