Humidity Problems That Seem Unsolvable

[Dallaslady51]

Hi - I got a ResMed Aircurve 10 VAuto BiPap about 6 weeks ago. I was excited to see if Maybe it would finally be a ResMed Machine that had a humidifier that worked with many types of masks. (I can't deal with the Respironics algorithms) Well the humidifier is a Complete Fail as usual.

I've been on Cpap/Auto/now Bipap for about 11 years. I know all the things to try - heated hose, hose cozy, machine lower than head, room temperature is set at 70 degrees at night (not unreasonable), try auto setting, try varying ranges of manual settings, praying, hoping, etc etc.

The S9 Autoset was not so bad - humidity worked pretty well. But the Airsense 10 (tried and returned 4 of them because of flooding) and the Aircurve 10 Bipap all perform exactly the same way. With a ResMed Nasal mask, it's like there is No humidity no matter if set on auto or manual with high number - it dries out my nose, and then I have to mouth breathe and wake up with pounding heart and extreme anxiety.

With F&P Nasal or Full Face (can't get that one to seal anyway), it is the great flood - water pouring from hose into my face and even spraying through the exhaust holes! - charming, yes? Again, that is on auto or manual set to lowest setting of 1. Love the fit of the F&P 407 nasal, but drowning brings same result - wake up with pounding heart and major anxiety attacks. I realize that Most people do not have problems anything like this. I am completely in despair and my anxiety about this has now turned into constant major panic attacks that begin with opening my eyes in the morning and continuing until bedtime when I can look forward to another disastrous night. I have seen the doctor to get anxiety meds and am considering a psychiatrist because it is gotten so disabling.

I cannot imagine what is causing this - it does seem to be worse, or a little better based on brand. 3 F&P masks = the great flood, ResMed masks = almost no humidity and drying my nose like the desert. My old breeze nasal pillows (discontinued) - the great flood x 10.

Since on the Bipap, my "numbers" are much more "lovely". AHIs on Auto were about 6-11, on BiPap they are about 2.5-4. But it is my understanding that we can have "beautiful" AHI numbers and still be breathing quite a bit through our mouths. My Bipap humidity tub is bone dry every morning after about 8.5 - 9 hours of sleep - guess that means I'm mouth breathing but I really don't know. The old S9 Autoset was usually about 1/2 full the next day, and there was rarely even minimal rainout, much less water Spraying in my face.

I am meeting with an out-of-network DME (a good one) in a week or 2 to try and find a full face mask that might seal. The volume of air blowing out under the F&P and the Simplus masks at medium pressure is truly astonishing - tried loosening, tightening, and everything in between - any pressure over about 15 and there's a hurricane coming out under those masks and the noise is incredible.

In summary, has anyone ever experienced anything similar or have suggestions other than all the basic ones I have tried. This should not be so hard. My in-network DME is beyond clueless, and my sleep "doctor" admits she knows Nothing about any of the machines or their settings. I had posted questions about Bipap settings in prior posts and think they are OK - range of 12 - 19 with average pressures being around 13-15. I reduced the Pressure Support based on Pugsy's suggestion from 5 and have it on about 1.4 now and that seems more comfortable. When I fall asleep I feel comfortable and everything seems ok - then either the Sahara desert or the Great Flood starts in a couple of hours and it's downhill from there until I wake up thinking I am having a heart attack. It's just a panic attack (even called 911 one morning), but I feel so helpless to do anything about this mess.

Thank you for any insight or anything to try. I'm in despair right now because it's getting dark, and I know what I'm about to have to go through again........

[kteague]

I think any of us would be unnerved if this was happening on a regular basis. I had it happen a few times and it is indeed a rude awakening. Since the accumulation of moisture seems to be unmanageable, can you manage its flow so that in cannot reach your face? First, is your machine placed significantly lower than you? I don't like to place it on the floor due to more dust, but I do sit mine on a sturdy low box, and have used a large book in the past. This forces the moisture to have to travel uphill to get to you, and theoretically most should drip back into the tank. Make gravity work for you. Sorry I'm of no technical help with settings, but maybe a practical tip will help you be able to sleep without dread. Good luck!

[Dallaslady51]

I have it about one foot below my head and the hose goes up over the headboard. Last night I turned off the humidity and woke up at 5 gasping for breath with no moisture. Switched to Resmed Mirage nasal mask and set the machine on auto and flew up out of bed at 8 thinking I was going to die because of the dryness. It takes me about 6 hours of shaking and taking anxiety meds and thinking I am going to die to recover from every single night's sleep. every single day.

I have used cpap and auto for 10 years and have never experienced anything like this. i understand the machine settings and have the clinicians manual and checked with my sleep doctor (who knows nothing) and she said the range settings are ok and just leave the other settings on the bipap as they are (I don't understand the extra settings, but she said maybe they were for people that had issues like COPD- she doesn't know.)

the AHI numbers are fine, but I cannot function anymore from fear and shaking and recovering from no moisture or drowning in water, have checked and rechecked and tried every combination of everything.

i hate to give up because since the numbers are better and maybe the bipap is ok for me? but i can't go on like this anymore. i can barely type this from the anxiety and fear about having to face another night. i cry for at least 2 hours over this every day - the last 5 days i have gone completely nonfunctional - my husband just tries to get me to eat a little something he puts in front of me and i just sit an shake and cry the rest of the day.

i guess i should go back to the old s9 autoset tonight and see if i can at least survive one more night and if it make a difference???

it scares me that it will take weeks to figure this out - the DME will deny anything wrong with the machine because the numbers are good. the sleep doctor will deny that bipap is wrong for me because the sleep study (done by questionable 3rd party company whose technicians kept trying to put all the masks on me upside down.......) said they could control apneas better with bipap than auto. To find another sleep doctor would take 2 months to get in, another month for another sleep study and another month to get a different machine if warranted.

but if a person's average range is 13-15, do they really require a bipap? i don't have any lung or heart problems.

my numbers were 6-8 on the auto and i was a little tired but i was not a crazy person and i could function and go places. i can't anymore. i don't even feel like i can get through the next 10 minutes. thank you for any advice - i really need help from people that use cpap, thank you

[Julie]

If the hose is over the headboard, you've defeated the point of it's being lower than the mattress!

[Dallaslady51]

If the hose is over the headboard, you've defeated the point of it's being lower than the mattress!

But I thought by putting it over the headboard any excess water in the part of the hose that is coming up over the headboard would run back into the machine? I mean that seems logical to me, but is it possible that the water force is strong enough to push up to the top of headboard and then run back down?

How come so many people use those hose buddies or run hose over headboard and don't seen to have any humidity problems - either no humidity or water blowing. I see so many people with that setup.

[Pugsy]

I assume your headboard where the hose is routed is higher than your head????

The part of the hose from the humidifier to the headboard will help any water to drain downward but the side of the hose from the headboard to the face isn't going to let the water go anywhere but back into the face.
Meaning any condensation on that side of the headboard has no place to go but down to the mask/face area.

If you are getting condensation at the mask level because the moisture in your own exhaled breath is tipping the scales and letting the condensation happen then that water can't go uphill to the head board.

There are 2 sources for moisture in the air.
First being the humidifier and the second being your own exhaled breath.
Whether that air cools enough to release the moisture in the form of condensation is physics in action....you have to keep the air in the hose/mask warm enough to not cool to the point of releasing the moisture.
If turning up the hose air temp by using a heated hose isn't enough to keep the air warm enough then additional insulation via a hose cozy or some sort of mask cozy might be the next option.

FWIW...the new AirCurve/AirSense machines and the way the hose attaches to the machine isn't very conducive for letting gravity help very much with any water in the hose. I have one and not long ago I had a lot of condensation happen and even taking the mask off my face and holding the hose totally vertical in an attempt to let the water drain back into the humidifier was NOT successful. It doesn't does drain well because of that angle at the hose to machine level. I found it was much simpler to just add more warmth to the air and prevent the condensation from ever happening in the first place than it was to try to deal with the water after the fact.

[Dallaslady51]

Wow Pugsy - you may have just made me feel less like a crazy person that should be committed (hopefully to a sleep lab, not a regular hospital).

Yes the headboard is about 2 feet over my head - so it makes so much sense what you are saying. And I am having the same humidity problems with the same brands and types of masks that I had on the Autosense 10 and was so frustrating (but had not reached this awful point). Stupid me I was Praying that the Aircurve would not do this but I guess the design is identical in that regard. Since I can only use ResMed (the Respironics algorythm doesn't suit me at all), and there wasn't a newer ResMed Bipap DIFFERENT in humidifier design from the Autosense 10, I reluctantly chose the Aircurve VAuto. Even the ResMed techs admitted to me there was probably too much humidity built into these latest machines - may have been only 5-10% but I know it causes problems, especially with some masks.

I do use the heated hose and I do have a cover on it, and any mask I have tried with a little hose of its own, I have covered as well.

Maybe, just maybe its not Bipap being Horrible for me - Maybe it really is a really tough humidity problem that is causing me to completely implode and wake up terrified and gasping for air (too dry) or flinging the mask off (choking on the water spraying in my face and down my throat).

****One question if I was doing a lot of mouth breathing (due to the dry air or flooding) in spite of good AHI's of 2-4 now, could that be causing the humidifier to be totally out-of-whack because it's not getting much resistance back from basically not breathing in or out of the mask? That's part of what I don't understand.

Maybe I should try - putting the machine lower than my head, taking the hose Off the headboard, just laying it down in back of me and dealing with it and having a Big loop below my bed. Then with that try the F&P which I love (but drowns me) and see if that helps. Even when trying to drown me, the F&P feels So Much Better because there is at least some moisture in the mask and coolness and my nose is OPEN - it's still scary when I wake up because of all the water, but not as scary as the dryness. With the other masks and the severe dryness, when I wake up, my nose is CLOSED, and that's a problem because I have trained myself So Well to keep my mouth closed over the last 10 years.

***Need Clarification with your suggestion of trying to prevent the condensation:
- right now I have the hose temp set to 76 (I have had it as high as 80) Do I have to increase that? I like it cool, but maybe that's a Bad Idea.
- room temp is 70 - should I increase that? I don't really know how room temp affects the humidity response of the machines.
- doesn't it seem weird that extreme dryness occurs with the Mirage II Nasal and extreme flooding occurs with the F&P 407 nasal? and it's consistent - tried both several times - same exact results and same machine settings. It seems like if the machine was pushing too much humidity always, then there would always be flooding issues with all nasal masks?
- i have tried both auto and varying levels of manual with no real differences - what would you recommend - forget auto since is obviously doesn't work very well for me, and keep trying low manual settings. i actually tried turning the humidifier off and that was an epic fail - my nose shut down like a lid snapping shut. do you use auto on your machine?

Thanks so much - just one person saying that the humidity can be weird on these machines is such a relief. I am still going to also go to the good local DME (non-network) and pay for their technician to work with me on both nasal and full face masks. I cannot get a full face to seal, but would like to see if there is one that might work - at least I could get that question answered if I might do better with a full face.

[Pugsy]

right now I have the hose temp set to 76 (I have had it as high as 80) Do I have to increase that? I like it cool, but maybe that's a Bad Idea.

To prevent condensation the air in the hose/mask has to be warm enough to not release whatever moisture it is holding...so yes...more warmth...higher hose air temp.
You have to decide which you want more....moisture or cool air because it's unlikely that you will be able to have both.
I know what you mean though...I prefer the cooler air going in my nose but my nose really needs the moisture so in the winter I just suck it up and deal with the warmer air in the hose that I need to prevent condensation.
My bedroom ambient temp...60 degrees maybe..and with my preference for high humidity (that's what my nose wants) then I will get rain out unless I pretty much max the hose air temp at 86 degrees.

Now I could try to increase the ambient bedroom temp but that is difficult where I live and my old house and I don't really like a warm bedroom.
The warmth of 86 degree air is less annoying to me than a hot bedroom would be if you know what I mean.

- room temp is 70 - should I increase that? I don't really know how room temp affects the humidity response of the machines.

Room air temp doesn't really affect the humidity except in either allowing condensation to happen or prevent it. In general warm air will hold on to more moisture than cooler air and the machine just tries to deliver whatever humidity you have selected for it to deliver.
Room air temp will affect the cooling off of the air in the mask or any short hose though.
So an option to help prevent condensation in the mask or hose is warmer bedroom temps if you like a warmer bedroom.

doesn't it seem weird that extreme dryness occurs with the Mirage II Nasal and extreme flooding occurs with the F&P 407 nasal?

I have no idea why the dryness happens but the difference between flooding and not flooding could simply be the construction of the mask and the silicone used. One mask allows for that air to cool down too easily and condensation happens.
One mask retains the warmth a little more than the other and thus condensation does or doesn't happen.

i have tried both auto and varying levels of manual with no real differences - what would you recommend - forget auto since is obviously doesn't work very well for me, and keep trying low manual settings. i actually tried turning the humidifier off and that was an epic fail - my nose shut down like a lid snapping shut. do you use auto on your machine?

Auto humidity on the AirCurve is 85% I think. On the S9 I think it was 80%. I do well with either really but right now I am using 6 humidity with 86% because the overall ambient humidity in the house has been reduced since it has turned cold and the house furnace is running and that dries the ambient humidity out a bit. Just a little extra to help me out for during the day when the nose is breathing a little drier air...plus I use Simply Saline often. My nose doesn't like getting dried out...like yours if it gets too dry the nasal mucosa will snap shut and I will be miserable.

My suggestion would be figure out a humidity setting your nose likes and then adjust the hose air temp as needed to prevent condensation.
You have some room to increase the hose air temp before it gets really warm...sometimes as little as 2 degrees is enough to prevent the condensation as long as the bedroom ambient temp isn't too cool.

I think your panic response...is just that...a panic or anxiety response.
There really isn't THAT big of a difference between how your AirCurve is doing its job now that you have reduced the PS to something very similar to the EPR you were using on the S9. You get all worked up over a little thing and it grows and grows and grows and before long you are in a full blown anxiety attack. I don't mean to sound uncaring or hard hearted but what you are describing sounds more like a panic/anxiety attack fed probably by frustrations. I know it is very real though. Panic attacks are very real. We just have to figure out how to best avoid them from happening or feeding them.

For the condensation in the mask issues...try more hose air temp and it doesn't have to necessarily be a lot higher.
The other night I woke up with a wet nose...one more degree and no more wet nose. Sometimes it's really a simple solution.
If the bulk of your problem is the moisture in your own exhaled breath sitting in the mask and that air cooling down...reducing the incoming humidity setting is unlikely to help all that much. I know people who don't use a humidifier at all who get rain out in the mask just from the moisture they are exhaling. It's just easier to warm up the air in the mask and prevent it from cooling down...IMHO.

[ChicagoGranny]

But I thought by putting it over the headboard any excess water in the part of the hose that is coming up over the headboard would run back into the machine? I mean that seems logical to me, but is it possible that the water force is strong enough to push up to the top of headboard and then run back down?

How come so many people use those hose buddies or run hose over headboard and don't seen to have any humidity problems - either no humidity or water blowing. I see so many people with that setup.

Are you exaggerating the amount of water? A couple of tablespoons can seem like a lot when blown onto your face while you are sleeping and being awakened by it.

but is it possible that the water force is strong enough to push up to the top of headboard and then run back down?

No. Water vapor is coming up the hose and condensing. It is the condensate that is running into your mask.The problem might be solved when you get rid of the fall in the hose from the top of the headboard to your face.

[cjlipe]

Problems with equipment unresolved.

[Julie]

Corporate executive staff? This is an internet forum of Cpap users who share problems and solutions about apnea, and equipment. There's no staff. There is a moderator, and the forum is owned by people who sell a large variety of equipment online (like any other dealers), and they sponsor the forum. They can be found at Cpap.com (vs this forum Cpaptalk.com).

Has it occurred to you that if you're a mouth breather you might need to address that - it's very likely what's keeping you so dry and there are ways to improve it, but we need you to provide more info (confirmation) first. Also the make and model of your machine plus mask as well as pressure settings and any meds that might also cause dryness - there are quite a few of those.

If you do want to yell at the equipment mfgr's (such as Resmed), do so, but we are not them by a mile. It is far more likely patients complain because they haven't come here to share problems and find answers from the experienced and knowledgable members (not staff).

[palerider]

Does ResMed ever plan to address and correct the lack of moisture problems with the equipment? I would like to validate the online complaints relating to "lack of moisture" resulting from using the cpap equipment. I am using the equipment appropriately, added in the use of a humidifier, have a chin strap, wake up with my mouth closed -- and still there is a server lack of moisture even though I've maximized the moisture volume. It is a severe problem in that I wake up 1-2 hour with painful nasal dryness, dry mouth and must drink water. I hydrate during the day in addition, but still cannot get a good sleep using this machine. In fact, I get better sleep without using the machine, although it is medically not recommended. I've taken the equipment to the Doctor's office and they said they check it out and everything is fine, but I do not believe it. When I first got the machine, there was temporarily enough moisture, but that is not the case with continuous daily use. There are so many patients complaining of the same issues resulting from the use of faulty equipment. Patients are complaining because they desperately need this to be corrected, and it seem the complaints have been simply "patronized" far as I can tell.

PLEASE ESCALATE TO YOUR CORPORATE EXECUTIVE STAFF SO THEY CAN ADDRESS AND CORRECT THE ISSUES WITH THE FAULTY EQUIPMENT. The health of the Sleep Apnea patient community is relying on your support -- why not recall and replace the faulty equipment for crying out loud?

Nutjobs... where would we be without them?

Tape your mouth shut.

[LSAT]

PLEASE ESCALATE TO YOUR CORPORATE EXECUTIVE STAFF SO THEY CAN ADDRESS AND CORRECT THE ISSUES WITH THE FAULTY EQUIPMENT. The health of the Sleep Apnea patient community is relying on your support -- why not recall and replace the faulty equipment for crying out loud?

Sorry...The escalator is not in service...take the stairs

[Goofproof]

PLEASE ESCALATE TO YOUR CORPORATE EXECUTIVE STAFF SO THEY CAN ADDRESS AND CORRECT THE ISSUES WITH THE FAULTY EQUIPMENT. The health of the Sleep Apnea patient community is relying on your support -- why not recall and replace the faulty equipment for crying out loud?

Sorry...The escalator is not in service...take the stairs

When going all the way to the ground floor, just climb over the handrail and drop. Jim

cjlipe, Is trying to kill off all the CORPORATE EXECUTIVE STAFF, by making them laugh themselves to death!

[Snoregone Conclusion]

PLEASE ESCALATE TO YOUR CORPORATE EXECUTIVE STAFF SO THEY CAN ADDRESS AND CORRECT THE ISSUES WITH THE FAULTY EQUIPMENT. The health of the Sleep Apnea patient community is relying on your support -- why not recall and replace the faulty equipment for crying out loud?

Sorry...The escalator is not in service...take the stairs

When going all the way to the ground floor, just climb over the handrail and drop. Jim

cjlipe, Is trying to kill off all the CORPORATE EXECUTIVE STAFF, by making them laugh themselves to death!

There are such things as escalation engineers (escalators not involved): that's my current job title. However, I'm not involved with any products with the types of users here!

The insanity is thinking this site is connected with any manufacturer at all: perhaps it's due to longterm sleep deprivation