New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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robysue
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by robysue » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:53 pm

jnk wrote: As for UARS, the only reason a lab would have to look for it is if the patient's payers consider that a valid diagnosis for qualifying to try PAP. Otherwise, why look for a condition that will earn the patient the same rights to try a CPAP as a diagnosis of "heebie-jeebies" would? Payers dictate what conditions are looked for, since payers have more control over treatments than doctors do, in this day and age. In my opinion. And I still don't think all payers are on board with the UARS thing, whether docs are or not.
There's an awful lot of truth in what JNK says here.

And in the US, Medicare is a huge payer. And unless I'm badly mistaken, Medicare will NOT pay for a CPAP trial if the diagnosis is UARS with no official OSA.

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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sleep2Die4 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:23 pm

jnk wrote: Payers dictate what conditions are looked for, since payers have more control over treatments than doctors do, in this day and age.
Do you use rotten doctors or are you just repeating a popular misunderstanding of how doctors generally go about diagnosis and treatment?

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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by jnk » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:13 pm

I believe you would find that most primaries today would agree in their heart with the following sentiments, whether they would admit it to you or not:
Insurance companies, not doctors, seem to dictate how medicine is practiced in the 21st century. As physicians decide on the best approach to diagnosis and/or manage a patient, they must keep in mind what an insurance company will and will not pay for. Thus, despite their years of training, physicians do not have the final say in overall treatment. This certainly can decrease doctors’ satisfaction in the care they are providing since what the insurance company dictates may not always be what is most appropriate for a individual patient.
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Sleep2Die4
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sleep2Die4 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:12 pm

Google is a wonderful thing. You don't have to know anything about anything. You just need an opinion and you can pop off to Jacksonville to find one man writing something that seems to back up your preconceived notions. Your case is closed.

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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by jnk » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:40 pm

Let me know next time you're in DUMBO and we'll talk about it over coffee.

Meantime, since you appear to be too lazy to use Google yourself to find any sources for your preconceptions, you can read what another doctor says--which is what your doctor believes but isn't telling you to your face:
Insurance coverage drives . . . which tests and procedures we can use to diagnose and treat patients, and even which patients we care for. Doctors act independently of this concern usually only when making life-and-death decisions, and usually is the operative word.
http://www.sharecare.com/health/health- ... c-decision

I will be glad to read any rebuttal source you wish to provide. Or you can just keep on your silly path of attacking a concept you don't wish to understand, instead. Your choice.

Last edited by jnk on Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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robysue
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by robysue » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:03 pm

Sleep2Die4,

Medicare is up front about exactly when they will and will not pay for a CPAP trial. From the CMS.gov webpage titled, National Coverage Determination (NCD) for Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) Therapy For Obstructive Sleep Apnea (OSA) (240.4) is the following language:
Apnea is defined as a cessation of airflow for at least 10 seconds. Hypopnea is defined as an abnormal respiratory event lasting at least 10 seconds with at least a 30% reduction in thoracoabdominal movement or airflow as compared to baseline, and with at least a 4% oxygen desaturation.

...
3 An initial 12-week period of CPAP is covered in adult patients with OSA if either of the following criterion using the AHI or RDI are met:
  • a. AHI or RDI greater than or equal to 15 events per hour, or

    b. AHI or RDI greater than or equal to 5 events and less than or equal to 14 events per hour with documented symptoms of excessive daytime sleepiness, impaired cognition, mood disorders or insomnia, or documented hypertension, ischemic heart disease, or history of stroke.
6. The AHI or RDI is calculated on the average number of events of per hour. If the AHI or RDI is calculated based on less than 2 hours of continuous recorded sleep, the total number of recorded events to calculate the AHI or RDI during sleep testing must be at a minimum the number of events that would have been required in a 2-hour period.

7. Apnea is defined as a cessation of airflow for at least 10 seconds. Hypopnea is defined as an abnormal respiratory event lasting at least 10 seconds with at least a 30% reduction in thoracoabdominal movement or airflow as compared to baseline, and with at least a 4% oxygen desaturation.
In other words, Medicare will NOT pay for a CPAP to treat UARS if the AHI < 5. Moreover, Medicare will NOT pay for a CPAP to treat OSA if the diagnostic test used Rule 4B to score hypopneas and it is the Rule 4B hypopneas that push the AHI over 5.

NOTE: A Rule 4B hypopnea can be scored under either of the following circumstances:
  • There is at least a 50% reduction in thoracoabdominal movement or airflow as compared to baseline and there is at least a 3% oxygen desaturation, OR
  • There is at least a 50% reduction in thoracoabdominal movement or airflow as compared to baseline and there is an associated arousal as measured by the EEG data
So what would you do if you ran a sleep clinic where many (or most) of your patients/customers were old enough to be covered by Medicare? Would you bother to look for UARS even if you believed it was a real condition when doing so increases the costs of administering the test and runs the risk of saddling a patient with a diagnosis for which the treatment will NOT be authorized by Medicare?

And would you shy away from scoring Rule 4B hypopneas for Medicare patients as well and for the same reason?


These are NOT academic questions about bizarre far out scenarios: Not everyone has O2 desats with hypopneas.

In my own case, I have some good reasons to believe that some of the scoring on my own diagnostic sleep test may have been "fudged" a bit. And by that I mean this: My insurance company will pay for CPAP if the AHI > 15 and there's no history of daytime sleepiness regardless of whether Rule 4A (Medicare's definition of hypopnea) or Rule 4B is used. And I had no history of daytime sleepiness going into my sleep test; I was sent for a PSG because my hubby was witnessing apneas several times a week and was concerned about them. I had an OAI = 3.5 on my diagnostic sleep test. All of my Rule 4B hypopneas were scored as "hypopneas with arousal" and there were no O2 desats noted on the sleep test; hence none of them would have counted in Medicare's eyes, and if I were a Medicare patient, I would have been told that I had NO OSA at all.

But under Rule 4B my diagnostic AHI = 23.5 or so because of a very large number of "hypopneas with arousal". It's quite likely that many of my "hypopneas with arousal" required a judgement call on the part of the tech scoring the test as to whether the air flow had really been reduced by 50% for 10 seconds, but the increasing respiratory effort was there and the EEG arousals were there. So fudging a bit on what the "baseline" was could well have changed a probable UARS diagnosis (and no coverage for a CPAP titration test and no coverage for a PAP machine) into a clear cut Moderate OSA diagnosis with coverage for both a titration test and a PAP machine.

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Sludge
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sludge » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:18 am

robysue wrote:Medicare is up front about exactly when they will and will not pay for a CPAP trial.
Even more important are the criteria for which they snatch the machine back:

http://www.cms.gov/Outreach-and-Educati ... 905064.pdf
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Sludge
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sludge » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:30 am

jnk wrote:I also believe he and his "people" have a knack for informing some patients about, and getting them excited about, SDB in general and his team's crafted customized approach for those with multiple sleep complications, medical and otherwise, who have failed badly with more standard approaches.
"IMHO", this is the key to his "success". If ANYBODY spends ~20 hours of intensive support to a PAP patient, compliance will go through the roof.

But the "standard approach" is rapidly becoming do an HST, then here's a 4/20 APAP and GFL.
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sludge » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:48 am

Sleep2Die4 wrote:...a popular misunderstanding of how doctors generally go about diagnosis and treatment?
I wish you were right...
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sludge » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:18 am

jnk wrote:5K IS a serious hunk of dough,--but hey, if it turns a life around . . .
So here's the Acid Test:

Come spend a weekend with RobySue or Pugsy (bring a BIG fistful of Dead Former Ambassadors To France)(note: NOT Dead Presidents), and your current machine (for the purposes of this study, preferably NOT an ASV) and if the same or better results than Barry are not realized, then I will admit...

...I will admit...

...nah, even though there's no chance, I still won't admit...

NOTE TO RS/Pugsy: Put out the guest towels! Company coming!!

Boy I'm good at volunteering other people's services...
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by jnk » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:20 am

If the category is five-letter names ending in Y, (Barry vs. Pugsy vs. Robby), I agree that Barry would come in a distant third. But I wouldn't wish the job of filling out payer paperwork and washing guest towels on Pugsy or RS--their time is too valuable for that, and it would cut into their time saving lives here.

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Sludge
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sludge » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:27 am

jnk wrote:But I wouldn't wish the job of filling out payer paperwork and washing guest towels on Pugsy or RS--
The only paperwork involved in the Sludgepliance Method involves personal hygiene.

Also, this will be based on a "Boot Camp" philosophy.

In between SDB-Related Activities, participants are required to get their dead asses out and work (including, but not limited to, going down to the stream to do laundry).
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Sludge
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sludge » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:30 am

Sludge wrote:...going down to the stream...
Or the Mississippi.

Or the Erie Canal.

Or the East River (welcome to The Team, Jeff).
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Sludge
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sludge » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:31 am

jnk wrote:If the category is five-letter names ending in Y...
I mean, "Jeffy"...
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Re: New UARS patient? Standard Sleep Study NORMAL.

Post by Sludge » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:38 am

Anyway...

Image

Image
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