Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

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HealthyandHopeful
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Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by HealthyandHopeful » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:29 am

Hi,

I apologize if this is discussed elsewhere -- I feel it probably has been, but maybe not with my specific questions.

I got a full face mask this week to use at times when I can't breathe through my nose. I have allergies and this already happened once since I began this treatment (just began it two weeks ago today). The full face mask I got this week is called the Sunset, or that may be the company's name. The DME said he has never had this one returned (I looked on cpap.com and they don't carry it any more). This DME has been so helpful to me after many frustrating weeks looking for a good company to help me, so I do not fault him. The mask fits okay when I put it on and in the night it starts leaking. (I am a side sleeper and have tossed and turned most of the last two nights it seems to me). The first night I tightened it and that helped. Last night (my second night) it happened again and I tightened it again. I have not slept much these past two nights. This morning around 4 am I finally took the mask off. It was so tight it was hurting my neck. I figured I had logged enough hours to show compliance and so I took it off -- first time I have done that since starting treatment. I looked online and it seems most, if not all full face masks go around your neck.

Side note, yesterday my husband told me that he woke up to a beeping sound the night before (first night with this mask). He got up and looked at my machine and finally figured out it was a whistling sound coming from my mask. So, at least I know I slept some, because I did sleep through this!

I am leaving town today and may not be able to respond much but I will check back for responses. I have two weeks to exchange this mask. I was going to use it the next two weeks to be sure, but unless I am doing something wrong and causing the problem, I don't think I need to wear it a full two weeks to know if it's working for me or not. I know I probably had it too tight, but if not that tight, it was leaking.

This is the mask I have: https://www.cpap.com/productpage/sunset ... -mask.html. Apparently I'm not the first to have leakage problems.

Thanks to all for your help! Mask recommendations are appreciated!!

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Last edited by HealthyandHopeful on Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pugsy
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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by Pugsy » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:41 am

Pretty much all the full face masks have that lower back strap that can seriously aggravate any neck issues. That's one of the main reasons I don't do full face masks.

You might look at the Innomed/Respcare Hybrid as the way its lower back strap is situated it doesn't ride quite as low on the back of the head. Not quite so annoying. Initial fitting is a bitch to get down but once it is fitted it is not bad and lots of people have great success with it.

The Sunset masks...probably not the most commonly used masks. They are cheaper so that's why a lot of DMEs push them. Exchange it and try something else while you can.

I have no real personal experience with any full face mask other than trying briefly and hating them so I will have to let the others offer their ideas but any mask is a crap shoot because everyone simply has different preferences and different facial structures and different needs. The only way to know for sure how a specific mask is going to work for you is for you to try it. This mask journey is probably the most difficult part of cpap therapy IMHO.

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purple
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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by purple » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:00 am

Some masks lose seal when the seal is distorted by tightening them too much. Some folks have problems with a machine set to auto and as the pressure increases, creates leaks.

I have never used a FFM to breathe through my mouth, and I am not sure they were designed for that, rather they are too keep one from exhaling through the mouth.

Then again, I have never successfully used a nasal mask, which most folks use.

There is a oral only mask, which I think was designed for those with sinus problems

There may be some other possibilities that you are not aware of. Here in east Texas, in Tyler we have what I consider a world class sleep doctor, Dr Ghuge. He has proven that those of us with sleep apnea, are often gasping for breath, as we have probably done since we were babies. This creates a reverse sump effect which bring stomach acid up. The vapors can cause the nose to drip. For me, I got rid of my constant post sinus drip by using a bi level machine, altho it took a few weeks. Now I almost never take medicine for my stomach. (Well, right now I take Malox, to counteract the nervous stomach from Tramadol). If you did go to see Dr. Ghuge, then be prepared for a long time in the waiting room. Dr. Ghuge never leaves a patient until he has answered all their questions. It is hard to be angry with the delay when we realize that we will get the kind of complete care we dreamed of.

Another possibility to treat allergies is to take a tablespoon of honey every day, where the honey is local to where you live. It helps to reduce the allergies.


Another is a Neti Pot rinse, Over the Counter item from drug stores. Be very careful to keep the pot clean, and use Distilled Water. At least one person has died from doing a Neti Pot rinse with tap water. (brain eating amobea, which is common in the south during the summer). In fact, I think the first time I did a Neti Pot rinse I was removing stuff from my sinuses that has been there since I was a teen ager.

EDIT: I should say what I meant in how a bi level machine effects gasping for air. Sleep docs are concerned with the minimum pressure needed to stent the airway to keep it open. IMO: I still gasp for breath with that stent airway open pressure because my airway is so small that machine is not providing the air fast enough. The upper pressure on a bi level allows my lungs to fill in a more normal breath time. I hypothesize that if the upper pressure is too high, that the machine will switch into exhale before I have really fully finished my inhale. Which is why a well done sleep study seems necessary to me before strapping on a bi level machine. That is my opinion. and it is great to no longer have a drippy nose every day, which also lead to coughing to a near heart stopping time. I do get some sinus drip when I mow the lawn (I hate grass). so I shower and change clothes after mowing outside, or trimming bushes. As always, none of this might be your issue, might not help you at all, your mileage may vary. Best wishes.
Last edited by purple on Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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zoocrewphoto
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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by zoocrewphoto » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:12 am

purple wrote:Some masks lose seal when the seal is distorted by tightening them too much. Some folks have problems with a machine set to auto and as the pressure increases, creates leaks.

I have never used a FFM to breathe through my mouth, and I am not sure they were designed for that, rather they are too keep one from exhaling through the mouth.
What else would they be designed for? I doubt many people are inhaling through their nose and exhaling through the mouth while sleeping with a cpap machine.

The full face mask is intended to let people breathe through the mouth rather than their nose, without losing therapy. I don't breathe through my nose when lying down. So, without a full face mask or oral mask, I can't use cpap. I tried to breathe through my nose once while wearing the mask. I did not like the feeling at all.

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purple
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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by purple » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:18 am

zoocrewphoto, I am glad you chimed in with your experience. That is why the forum is important, a lot of folks have had different experiences.

For a long time I used a F&P Forma mask, which had a chin cup, and I know I could not have opened my mouth while using it. It is good to know that not all FFM's have such a limitation.

Saying what else would they be for is like that statement from mask manufacturers that the mask is meant only for a person sleeping on their back. Not to be used for side sleeping or, obviously sleeping on ones stomach. Mask manufacturers must know that many of us can not possibly sleep on our backs.

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englandsf
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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by englandsf » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:17 am

Never let anyone convince you you're a mouth breather. I did and got seriously stuck with FFMs and claustrophobia... Now I use sinus rinses and cortico steroids to allow me to use a really light pillow system (AirFit P10) and get great comfort and numbers...

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hyperlexis
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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by hyperlexis » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:40 am

This is one of the HCS brand, Chinese-made masks. I am not sure whether this is still being made. CPAP.com says it is discontinued on their site.

This mask appears to be something of a knock off of the Hans Rudolph, all-silicone FFM. I cannot state anything about the quality or leak rate of this mask.

However, what I can absolutely state is that if you adjust them properly, FFMs are as good if not better than other mask designs, and, often, cause less problems with pressure sores because they spread the pressure on the face out over a greater area. If you adjust them well, and they are properly sized, and your face fits them properly (this is an issue) then you can often get a good, leak-free fit. The benefit is that you can breathe through your mouth, or both your nose and mouth, etc., with a FFM.

Some people do great with lower priced masks, and some do worse. Same for higher priced FFMs. The key is that if you have a problem with ANY mask, use it for a few weeks, try to adjust the mask properly (and yourself) and if you still have problems, GET RID OF IT! Usually there is a 30-day trial period.

If you want advice on a good FFM check the customer ratings on CPAP.com or elsewhere.

A good standby is the ResMed Quattro FX (no forehead bar), the Quattro F10 (the new version of the FX), or the standard Quattro or Quattro Air (have forehead bars).

Or try the Amara Gel (Similar to the Quattro Air). Or, if you want a similar, likely better mask than the one you have currently, the Hans Rudolph V2. It has no forehead bar and is all silicone, with a chin cup to help keep your mouth closed, etc.

Good luck!

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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by library lady » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:06 pm

You might also try mask liners if you cannot control leaks; I use a FF mask, and until I learned about liners and started using them, I did not know if I would ever be able to adjust to CPAP. The Quattro Air and AirFit F10 use the same cushions, I have both and the only difference is that F10 does not have a forehead arm and strap. F10 is now my primary mask, and the Air is my backup mask. Finding the right fit for preventing leaks is tricky, too loose or too tight and you will have leaks. Using the liners allows for a little give and take with the fit, and helps prevent large leaks.

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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by flyingwithoutwings » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:39 am

library lady wrote:You might also try mask liners if you cannot control leaks; I use a FF mask, and until I learned about liners and started using them, I did not know if I would ever be able to adjust to CPAP. The Quattro Air and AirFit F10 use the same cushions, I have both and the only difference is that F10 does not have a forehead arm and strap. F10 is now my primary mask, and the Air is my backup mask. Finding the right fit for preventing leaks is tricky, too loose or too tight and you will have leaks. Using the liners allows for a little give and take with the fit, and helps prevent large leaks.
I totally agree with library lady. I have the Quattro Air (& the Airfit F10), which I used for six weeks and had lots of leaks until I started using mask liners. The liners made a HUGE difference, did away with the leaks. Now I'm back to my nasal mask but use my Quattro Air when feeling congested.
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Denial Dave
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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by Denial Dave » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:19 am

Ditto for me.... I use the Quattro FFM with higher pressure bi-level settings

To alleviate neck pains from the headgear. I use a self modifed pad-a-cheek headgear cover in the link below. I cut it down to provide padding on the back of my neck... It added just enough padding for me.

http://www.padacheek.com/PAC-Neck.html

Dave
zoocrewphoto wrote:
purple wrote:Some masks lose seal when the seal is distorted by tightening them too much. Some folks have problems with a machine set to auto and as the pressure increases, creates leaks.

I have never used a FFM to breathe through my mouth, and I am not sure they were designed for that, rather they are too keep one from exhaling through the mouth.
What else would they be designed for? I doubt many people are inhaling through their nose and exhaling through the mouth while sleeping with a cpap machine.

The full face mask is intended to let people breathe through the mouth rather than their nose, without losing therapy. I don't breathe through my nose when lying down. So, without a full face mask or oral mask, I can't use cpap. I tried to breathe through my nose once while wearing the mask. I did not like the feeling at all.

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englandsf
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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by englandsf » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:12 am

Some full face masks can put pressure on the bridge of the nose which actually stops nose breathing. I found that out once I fixed my congestion issues.

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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by ShelaghDB » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:31 am

The full face mask is intended to let people breathe through the mouth rather than their nose, without losing therapy. I don't breathe through my nose when lying down. So, without a full face mask or oral mask, I can't use cpap. I tried to breathe through my nose once while wearing the mask. I did not like the feeling at all.

I just spent 2 months after having read on a different forum that FF masks should never be prescribed for mouth breathers because they make your mouth dry.
Unfortunatley it made plenty of sense to a new CPAP user but after 2 very frustrating months, I just went back to a FF mask and my AHI numbers shot right down and I am FINALLY compliant.

I realize now that YOUR advice is correct but the other forums advice from this one person was INCORRECT and I firmly now believe people who do not know what they are talking about, like myself, should NEVER offer advice to newbies.........I wasted 2 full months and a lot of frustration having listened to that person and in turn, I know I told 2 people what i had been told.

Now I have gone back to the FF mask and it works perfectly but then unlike the person that started this thread, I sleep on my bad and not on my sides so there isn't any leakage at all with my mask.
If someone has high cheekbones and a heart shaped face as I do and is on the smaller side, my FF mask fits perfectly!!!!

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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by 49er » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:37 am

englandsf wrote:Some full face masks can put pressure on the bridge of the nose which actually stops nose breathing. I found that out once I fixed my congestion issues.
That was exactly my experience with several full face masks due to having to excessively tighten them to avoid leaks. I can't stand to primarily mouth breathe

That is why the Elan cloth mask is alot more comfortable. Unfortunately, struggling greatly to breath through my nose is tough and nasal rinsing still is not working and makes things worse.

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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by Janknitz » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:09 pm

Dry mouth occurs because air is flowing in and out of the mouth at pressure. When my nose is congested and I have to breathe through my mouth in my FF mask, my mouth gets dry.

Some people breathe through their mouths because they can't breathe through their noses for one reason or another (congestion, physical obstruction, habit). Some people breathe through their mouths because they can't seal off the oropharynx for one reason or another (sometimes because of botched surgeries to "cure" apnea).

But before you give up, it's worth trying to learn to seal off the oropharynx with your tongue on the roof of your mouth. This will keep the XPAP air flow out of your mouth and stop the drying out.

I wish I had a drawing to show you how the tongue does this, but I'll try to describe it. There's a ridge of palate just behind your front top teeth. Put your tongue there. With your tongue there, plug your nose, and see if you can move air in or out without moving your tongue from that spot. Most people cannot.

Assuming you CAN breathe through your nose (with some good nasal hygiene before bed if necessary), if you learn to sleep with your tongue there, you shouldn't have the dry mouth problem anymore.

I would have thought it was impossible to "learn" to keep my tongue there, since I'm asleep and therefore not aware. But I found it surprisingly easy--this is how: All day every day, keep your tongue on that spot UNLESS you are talking or eating. Become conscious of it and try to do it every moment you can. That will help build the "muscle memory" you need to keep it up while you sleep. For many people (not everyone) this WORKS, so give it a try.

It also avoids aerophagia, swallowing air. So it's a very useful skill to develop.

Good luck, hope it works for you.
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englandsf
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Re: Having trouble with FF mask, looking for recommendations

Post by englandsf » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:21 pm

49er - how much humidity/heat do you use?

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