A paranoid fantasy???

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
jnk
Posts: 5787
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:03 pm

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by jnk » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:50 am

As for the difference between corporate spying and governmental spying, the most important thing to grasp is that, in practice, it is a distinction without a difference. Governments need corporate technology in order to spy effectively, and the results of corporate spying will always be available to governments--depending, that is, on which insulated underground bunker you happen to be holed-up in at the moment. Data will be collected. And corporations influence governments. They both already have ways of knowing what weapons and how much ammo are under there with you and when you attempted to drop off the grid.

The primary customers for the manufacturers are the brick-and-mortar DMEs who don't want to hand over their alleged control of data to the manufacturers any more than we do. When a doc calls a DME with a question, the DME doesn't want to refer the doc to the manufacturer or to depend on complicated technology to get to the data. DME wants its ignorant/challenged employee to be able to see the data without having to learn a manufacturer's proprietary system for getting to it beyond pushing a few buttons. It should never be more difficult than flipping a burger or salting the fries.

The data was/were never meant for us, but we will always find a way to get to it.
Last edited by jnk on Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

HoseCrusher
Posts: 2744
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by HoseCrusher » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:59 am

Another way to view this is to follow the money...

If the machine recorded data gains approval for diagnosis, then simply sending a machine home would replace the sleep study. Doctors don't view the data from the machine as valuable because the "due standard of care" is the data from the sleep study. There are a lot of arguments against basing opinion based only upon flow.

To develop, maintain, store, and troubleshoot a wireless system funds are needed. In order to pay for all of this the money has to come from somewhere.

If nightly patient data is available to the doctors, who is going to pay for them to take the time to review it?

Are liability insurance costs going to increase to the doctors because they don't have enough time to monitor this data on a nightly basis and they risk the possibility of missing something?

If the DME is the "customer" how do they benefit from this change?

In addition the costs of a back up system needs to be added in if the main system goes down.

If you can find a way to make a profitable business model out of this change, then you can be paranoid.

_________________
Mask: Brevida™ Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Machine is an AirSense 10 AutoSet For Her with Heated Humidifier.
SpO2 96+% and holding...

Wulfman...

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by Wulfman... » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:34 pm

robysue wrote:
Wulfman... wrote: Well, the machine belongs to the user (even if being paid in payments by insurance, which is actually the user's premium dollars being paid out) and the data is the user's. So, speaking for me, I would have no hesitation telling them they have absolutely NO RIGHT to see my data, unless I agree to it.
Den,

I agree totally with the data being mine.

My concern is this: What if the manufacturer makes it impossible for me (the owner of the data) to get at that data because they replace the SD card with some kind of a proprietary wireless system that sends my data God-knows-where, but prevents me from accessing it because I don't have the whatever-it-is that's needed to receive the data transmission?

And unfortunately I do see this as the direction that Resmed and PR are going: Resmed has never officially allowed patients access to ResScan and PR is content to sell Encore 2.1 even though it does not show the patient all the data that is recorded and is not fully compatible with all the high end machines. Likewise F&P makes it impossible for users of the Icon + series to find software that works with their machiens. And the web tools PR and Resmed have designed? They provide minimal data feedback compared to what we get when we plop the SD card into our computer and look at things in SH.
Some more random thoughts........

I'm just not sure if they legally CAN or WOULD, without some legal hassles.

There aren't (or never could be) enough "support personnel" to monitor all of that data from all the machines out there.

The only time that any of the entities (other than the "users") care about the data is to be reimbursed by insurance. Once that period is over, they don't care. The vast majority of users don't really care about their own therapy results either.
Those of us on the forums who are "data wonks" are really an anomaly.

What happens when the users get past their compliance period or when the machine gets stashed in the closet or sold on CL, Goodwill or a yard sale? Are the manufacturers going to track the machine to a new user?

Then, there's the old screwdriver, pliers and wire cutter methods of disconnecting the "ET phone home" devices.
There are also some locations where "ET" can't even phone home. The wireless connectivity in the area I live in is extremely hit and miss......and mostly miss.

Or.......the (intelligent) users can always buy other brands or older models which don't have that technology.

The old adage of "Follow the Money" applies to this question, too. (as "HoseCrusher" pointed out)
And that brings to mind another question: Who or what insurance provider is going to PAY for this service/technology?


Den

.

User avatar
pdeli
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by pdeli » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:57 pm

Another aspect here is that those of us who are interested in being in charge of and understanding and managing their therapy, likely represent a small % of total patients. And we'll be "dying off" either literally or through current unreplaceable machine failure.

The future does not look bright here, (unless a C-Pap repair industry emerges).

Phil

_________________
Mask

Wulfman...

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by Wulfman... » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:06 pm

pdeli wrote:Another aspect here is that those of us who are interested in being in charge of and understanding and managing their therapy, likely represent a small % of total patients. And we'll be "dying off" either literally or through current unreplaceable machine failure.

The future does not look bright here, (unless a C-Pap repair industry emerges).

Phil
It already has.
One of the places is also a member of this forum under the user name "Accurate" and their website is "acbio-dot-com".
There are also a couple of others who have posted on the forum.


Den

.

Independent

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by Independent » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:56 am

Apparently this fantasy already has happened? I was just told by a medical equipment supplier that ALL the new machines have wifi. Well, I don't approve. It is just too Orwellian for me. I'm going to do whatever I can to disable the wifi. Not only is it an invasion of privacy, but there is potential for hacking. Call me paranoid, I don't care. This wifi nonsense will not stand. I'm literally 99-100% compliant (I love my cpap) but I absolutely 100% will not put up with this crap. THEY have gone too far.

If anyone has gotten any word on how to disable or destroy the wifi, please let me know.

User avatar
Krelvin
Posts: 1977
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Metro Phx Area - Dry Heat!

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by Krelvin » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:26 am

Independent wrote:Apparently this fantasy already has happened? I was just told by a medical equipment supplier that ALL the new machines have wifi.

If anyone has gotten any word on how to disable or destroy the wifi, please let me know.
No Wi-Fi. The have a cellular connection.

Disable by putting the CPAP into airplane mode. Quite simple.
Current Settings PS 4.0 over 10.6-18.0 (cmH2O) - Resmed S9 VPAP Auto w/h5i Humidifier - Quattro Air FFM
TNET Sleep Resource Pages - CPAP Machine Database
Put your equip in your Signature - SleepyHead v1.0.0-beta-1
Kevin... alias Krelvin

Independent

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by Independent » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:00 am

Krelvin wrote:
"No Wi-Fi. The have a cellular connection.

Disable by putting the CPAP into airplane mode. Quite simple."

Thanks!

yaconsult
Posts: 1099
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:43 pm
Location: "Silicon Valley", CA

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by yaconsult » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:39 am

PST wrote:It's an interesting scenario. I think the idea of little memory cards is a bit old fashioned, and I wish my machine could dump its data to a file of my choosing via my home network whether I remember to fetch it or not.
Many of us do this now using the Flashair 2 wireless memory cards and one of several free software packages. The memory card never leaves the cpap machine.
There is no reason why this technology couldn't be built into the cpap machine but cellular technology is better from their point of view because it requires no local networking setup.

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: January 2015 Sleep Study Results: Apnea/Hypopnea Index (AHI): 80.2, Sleepyhead

User avatar
postitnote
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:36 pm

Re: A paranoid fantasy???

Post by postitnote » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:36 pm

How about a change.org petition saying we will not buy from any company that has this ability? If nothing else it gets attention. Not sure I'd want a machine that someone could mess with on the other end. How ethical are the people that can control and change settings? I've read about nurses and other hospital employees giving out personal info on stars giving birth. Nurses are subject to ethics. On the other hand, someone like our Enchanter could benefit from something like this!

Big brother already has his nose so far up our collective butts that it's ridiculous though not necessarily scary. Semis that can track drivers down to a pee stop. Phones that can track everything. Doctors using tablets to record our visits and I'm sure that goes right to the insurance company. It's really gone pretty far. Cookies track our web browsing and plastic cards track our spending. You really need to go far off the grid to be safe.

Bottom line I just don't feel with all that information collected from so many places that any "big brother" spying on us has the time to process it all. But the outright ability to mess with settings on medical equipment is something that should be optional if a person says ok.
Morbius, are you bored?