Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

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SuddenlyWornOut45
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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by SuddenlyWornOut45 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:02 pm

Ambien and similar FDA approved hypnotics have been in so many research studies since the late nineties. The differences these studies have shown between ambien and similar FDA approved insomnia drugs and the benzo class are these: 1) the modern class hypnotics do not interfere with slow wave, deep stage sleep like benzos do. That alone is a huge difference and a huge advancement. 2) the modern class hypnotics are "cleaner" and have VERY short half lives, they are "in and out" of your system extremely fast. That means you dont feel sedated off your ass the next morning, in fact, you probably wont even feel sedated at all on modern class FDA approved anti-insomnia meds. By contrast, benzos have a long half life, klonopin the longest and these drugs stay in your system a long, long time. You take them at bedtime and the odds are you WILL feel sedated the next day.

You sound very biased and prejudiced against modern class, FDA approved anti-insomnia medications btw. As if your mind is already made up on this subject.

If you would like to read up on the chemical differences between traditional benzos and modern class hypnotic anti-insomnia meds, I'd suggest some psychopharmacology books by American psychopharmacologist Stephen Stahl. You can order his books off Amazon.com. He has some great books that explain sleep medicine drug pharmacology well. There ARE major differences between these meds.

Finally, you will not find doctors prescribing FDA approved insomnia drugs like ambien "off label" for any sort of anxiety. Doctors simply dont do it and the reason is, this class of drugs anti-anxiety effect is so minimal, so short lasting, so lets be honest...anemic...that these drugs have no off label anti-anxiety properties.

On the other hand, doctors routinely prescribe all the benzos "off label" for insomnia. And in America at least, that is a routine and well accepted practice amongst psychiatrists and some GPs and maybe even a few sleep medicine doctors. Although sleep medicine doctors down here tend to be a more educated crowd IMO and will usually prescribe an FDA approved drug like Ambien for insomnia.

FINALLY, there are FDA approved insomnia drugs down here that are not even controlled. As I mentioned earlier, one works on melatonin and has zero physical addiction properties to it. It is not even controlled and scheduled. It is impossible to become addicted to.

Eric

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Elle
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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by Elle » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:42 pm

So you trust your government now Eric? You mention FDA often.

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SleepyBobR
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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by SleepyBobR » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:04 pm

Eric, I agree with all that. I've no idea why you say I'm biased against the z drugs in particular. Read what I wrote. What I said was that "I wouldn't ever use any of these drugs", meaning both the z drugs and benzos. That said, the benzodiazapines like Klonopin are much riskier for sleep for all the reasons you state and all of these hypnotics carry the risk of dependency and withdrawal symptoms including rebound insomnia. Doctors should not be prescribing Klonopin just for sleep, although many still do, but I think it was prescribed in the OP's case because of his anxiety along with insomnia. Nothing stamps out anxiety better than a benzo but a long term fix it ain't. Not for my money anyway. Benzos are restricted for a reason.

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SuddenlyWornOut45
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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by SuddenlyWornOut45 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:02 pm

hell no I dont trust my government. Our government is supposed to submit to the will of the American citizen. I dont trust my government these days anymore than I would go around licking toilet seats.

Eric
Elle wrote:So you trust your government now Eric? You mention FDA often.

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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by Ruinednose » Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:41 pm

i took melatonin 1 mg last night.
didn't really help with early awakenings and feeling of deep sleep.

i go to bed fine and on will, but the second half of the sleep cycle i wake up often and don't have soun sleep.
thats what im trying to do

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SuddenlyWornOut45
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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by SuddenlyWornOut45 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:40 pm

the non controlled anti-insomnia drug I was talking about is called Rozerem. Or chemical name is ramelteon. I tried it a few times years ago when it first came out. I remember it left a mild metallic taste in my mouth. It is non controlled and thus, not physically addictive. It is FDA approved here in the USA for insomnia, specifically. It is considered a "melatonergic hypnotic," as opposed to a "GABA hypnotic" like Ambien.

http://www.rozerem.com

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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by lightnmisty » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:58 pm

I was prescribed 1MG of klonopin three times a day for anxiety disorder 25 years ago. I remember it was difficult to stay awake for a couple of weeks. After all these years, I still take the same dose--it is a godsend for anxiety disorder, but it no longer makes me sleepy or helps me fall asleep. You build a tolerance for the sleepy effect...I am sure there are better meds currently for anxiety disorder, but it was what was prescribed back then. I wouldn't give it up nor have I had to increase the dosage for effective relief for anxiety disorder, but I wouldn't recommend it as a sleep aid. I now suffer from insomnia, but there is no way I would consider upping the Klonopin dosage for even one night. It would be a slippery slope with a crash landing.

SuddenlyWornOut45
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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by SuddenlyWornOut45 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:04 pm

I have a slick, special way I invented myself to get off a benzo fast. Even if addicted to a benzo. Ive used it once before and am going to use it again soon.

Eric

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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by 49er » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:50 am

Ruinednose wrote:i took melatonin 1 mg last night.
didn't really help with early awakenings and feeling of deep sleep.

i go to bed fine and on will, but the second half of the sleep cycle i wake up often and don't have soun sleep.
thats what im trying to do
I read your previous posts in which you indicated you were on Flonase. As an FYI, that can cause insomnia even though sadly, many doctors still don't realize it.

And there is a old thread about that which I can't find right now that you might want to search for.

49er

jameskramer
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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by jameskramer » Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:19 am

You may have thoughts about suicide while taking this medication. Your doctor will need to check you at regular visits. Do not miss any scheduled appointments.

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penuel
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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by penuel » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:02 am

You can see here that Zolpidem (generic Ambien) is top sleep Rx according to Consumer Reports on Health survey of about 10,000
responders having SLEEP PROBLEMS.

If you Google "Zolpidem and Sleep Apnea" you'll see medical reports attesting that it especially HELPS those with Central Sleep Syndrome.

Image

Source:

http://www.consumerreports.org/health/r ... ly2008.pdf

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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by robysue » Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:02 am

Ruinednose wrote: i go to bed fine and on will, but the second half of the sleep cycle i wake up often and don't have soun sleep.
thats what im trying to do
Middle-of-the-night insomnia or sleep maintenance insomnia is particularly hard to treat. All the commonly prescribed sleeping pills are designed to treat beginning-of-the-night insomnia and don't significantly decrease the amount of time spent in "wake after sleep onset (WASO)" according to a number of studies. They do, however, tend to make many people forget some or all of the numerous wake ups during the night, and hence many people who take them subjectively think that their sleep is more continuous while taking the medication than it is when they don't take it.

The one exception is Intermezzo, which has won FDA approval for treating middle-of-the-night insomnia. But Intermezzo is nothing but a very small dose of zolpidem tartrate (i.e. Ambien) that is in the form of a mint-flavored sublingual tablet. Its instructions carry the statement that it should only be taken if there is still at least 4 hours left for sleeping before you need to get up in the morning. The dosages available are 1.75 mg and 3.5 mg tablets.
i took melatonin 1 mg last night.
didn't really help with early awakenings and feeling of deep sleep.
Melatonin helps some people, but it certainly does not help everybody. And studies show that very small doses of melatonin are more likely to be effective than larger doses, but the makers of melatonin tend to market melatonin in what can only be regarded as "megadoses". Even the 1 mg tablets can be too much---the recommended dose for melatonin is usually around 0.3 mg. But it's impossible to find melatonin in doses smaller than 1 mg it seems. And for many people who find melatonin useful, the timing of the dose can be as important as not taking too much of it. Some people find that melatonin is more effective if they take it anywhere between 1 and 6 hours before bedtime instead of at bedtime. So you might want to try taking the melatonin earlier in the evening for a week or so. (It can take a few days for melatonin to make any perceivable difference in the quality of the sleep.)

For what it's worth, the only thing that I've found to be effective in fighting middle-of-the-night insomnia has been a very rigid wake up time (as in no sleeping in on the weekends---i.e. getting up at the same time all seven days each week) combined with a somewhat restricted time in bed window AND no daytime naps. In other words, the only thing I've found that reduces the number of wakes during the night is to allow myself no more than 6 or 6 1/2 hours in bed AND to get up at the exact same time every single day regardless of how much or how little I've slept. And not to take any naps no matter how tired I feel during the daytime. Is this approach going to work for everybody? No. It's hard to do and can leave you feeling even more wiped out for a week or two (or longer) since it takes a while to teach (or reteach) your body how to consolidate the sleep cycles so that the sleep is more continuous. But this approach is worth considering if nothing else seems to work and you're not getting much more than 6 to 6 1/2 hours of sleep regardless of how much time you're lying in bed each night.

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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by penuel » Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:11 am

Question,

Eric, to whom are you referring by posting: You sound very biased and prejudiced against modern class, FDA approved anti-insomnia medications btw. As if your mind is already made up on this subject?


The story about Sleep Docs complaining that Zolpidem (generic Ambien) delays REM and therefore these Sleep Docs don't allow taking it when you do a sleep study in a clinic. So what if it delays REM if you don't need to get up early? My own opinion is that it could be that sleep clinic owners and workers would rather not see you take Zolpidem b/c they are in a hurry to finish their jobs at 6 a.m. and go home.

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SuddenlyWornOut45
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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by SuddenlyWornOut45 » Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:09 pm

I was not referring to yourself, I was referring to that Canadian guy from Toronto who was basically bashing ambien and anti-insomnia drugs across the board. And comparing the modern class FDA approved insomnia meds to benzos.

As far as that doctor at Duke you referred to, I never heard of him. I have never been much impressed with Duke. My first sleep study was done at Dukey years ago and I was diagnosed with mild OSA there, but was not given CPAP therapy despite the fact I suffered from SEVERE depression. I could have benefited from CPAP therapy then. Dukey can go jump off a cliff, for all I care. It is a way overrated hospital, full of researchers and extra arrogant doctors who are great at research and teaching Duke med students, but not so hot at providing rubber meets the road clinical care to North Carolina residents who would like to use the "great Duke hospital" for their routine medical care and for specialized care.

Ive personally found Carolinas Medical System in the Charlotte/Metrolina area kicks the snot out of Dukey at providing rubber meets the road, clinical care. In plain English, when I get sick or have a flareup of an existing illness, I have gotten way better results from CMS/CMC in the Charlotte area. They just get things done in Charlotte, and without all the hoopla and bs and bragging and stuff at Dukey.

As far as your theory of not being prescribed ambien during sleep studies so sleep techs can get sleep study patients up immediately at 6 am and kick them out the door, I dont doubt your theory at all. It sounds dead on. Yeah, when those sleep techs want you out of the bed, you can tell they are ready to get out of there.

Eric

As for your
penuel wrote:
SuddenlyWornOut45 wrote:
Question,

Eric, to whom are you referring by posting: You sound very biased and prejudiced against modern class, FDA approved anti-insomnia medications btw. As if your mind is already made up on this subject?


The story about Sleep Docs complaining that Zolpidem (generic Ambien) delays REM and therefore these Sleep Docs don't allow taking it when you do a sleep study in a clinic, sounds silly to Dr Paul C Peterson, top Sleep Doc at Duke Raleigh. This Neurologist MD who also holds an MD in Sleep Science can't understand why sleep docs resist prescribing Zolpidem in proper doses for sleep to folks suffering from Sleep Disorders. So what if it delays REM if you don't need to get up early? My own opinion is that it could be that sleep clinic owners and workers would rather not see you take Zolpidem b/c they are in a hurry to finish their jobs at 6 a.m. and go home.

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Re: Klonopin (benzos for insomnia)

Post by penuel » Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:09 pm

Eric, please take it easy as long as you're not that other Eric who posted here about 1.5 years ago, with 4 letter words throughout.

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