saline solution in heated humidifier

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krousseau
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Post by krousseau » Wed May 10, 2006 10:14 pm

I'm still trying to visualize the posting that suggested the water film from the tank to the mask is somehow a highway for the bacteria to migrate.
Kinda like the salmon swimming up the gates.
That would have been me. I think they can do it because they have the help of the wind at their backs.

Thought: Don't confuse them with facts, their minds are made up.
So true. Kay
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.....Galbraith's Law

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Re: vapor

Post by reval » Thu May 11, 2006 1:18 am

tomjax wrote:
[...]
Water droplets are present in cold air humidifiers as a result of physical bashing the water against rotating fingers- actually, the other way around
There are no droplets and all is VAPOR..

The heat causes a phase transition- from liquid to vapor.

In a sense, the water condensed from the hose is not the same as the water in the tank- it never entered the hose as water, only vapor, but condensed back into water when it got cooler. So if the tank were full of bacteria, none would be in the rainout or condensate.

The pathogens- bacteria and virus cannot hitch a ride on this.
[...]
Tom, I appreciate your posts in these threads where quite a few people get carried away by fear and uncertainty and applaud you for reminding us of some basic high school physics and biology.


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Re: vapor

Post by tomjax » Thu May 11, 2006 6:03 am

[/quote]

Tom, I appreciate your posts in these threads where quite a few people get carried away by fear and uncertainty and applaud you for reminding us of some basic high school physics and biology.
-------------
but I still cannot quote properly. My ignorance is apparent it this area.


Thanks, but facts and well established scientific principles will never convince the chicken littles out there.

Ric and others can provide all the reasoned and cogent data, but this is still not enough.

Irrationality and sophistry in combination with a lack of basic science will always attract an audience. The unfortunate part is that many readers will be misled.
The ID logicians are the real masters at this.

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krousseau
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Post by krousseau » Thu May 11, 2006 1:04 pm

Did you take that last post seriously??? ROFLOL
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.....Galbraith's Law

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roster
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Re: vapor

Post by roster » Thu May 11, 2006 4:33 pm

[quote="tomjax"] So if the tank were full of bacteria, none would be in the rainout or condensate.

The pathogens- bacteria and virus cannot hitch a ride on this.

This is why there is no danger of getting bacteria in the hose- even if you use water from the toilet or the creek.

The only reason to use distilled water is to prevent the buildup of minerals that result from the water evaporating.

That is well established.
I'm still trying to visualize the posting that suggested the water film from the tank to the mask is somehow a highway for the bacteria to migrate.
Kinda like the salmon swimming up the gates.

Thought: Don't confuse them with facts, their minds are made up.

but facts and well established scientific principles will never convince the chicken littles out there.

Ric and others can provide all the reasoned and cogent data, but this is still not enough.

Irrationality and sophistry in combination with a lack of basic science will always attract an audience. The unfortunate part is that many readers will be misled.
The ID logicians are the real masters at this.


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tomjax got it right

Post by brasshopper » Thu May 11, 2006 5:28 pm

Tomjax got it right - there are a lot of interesting opinions here that don't have much to do with the truth or, for that matter, mechanics as they are commonly known.

There are about three different way that you can get water into air in a typical humidifier, maybe four.

1. You can allow it to evaporate from a room temperature source. The salt will stay behind if you do this. This is why rivers and rain and snow are "fresh" and the ocean is salty. Salt water evaporates and leaves the salt behind. Belt humidifiers may work this way - if they don't heat at all.

2. You can heat it to "boil" it, or if not all the way to boiling, at least warmer - this increases the boiling rate - but it does not effect the fact that the water vapor evaporates and leaves the salt behind. This is the effect you get when you put water in a teakettle and boil it or heat it to steaming to increase humidity

3. You can run an electric current through it - this is how the inexpensive sickroom vaporizers work. A pinch of salt allows the water to conduct more electricity and to boil faster. The salt is still left behind when the water boils - the steam is hot enough to burn.

4. You can mechanically throw or draw the water into the air in small droplets which evaporate quickly. There is a type of humidifier that you can characterize because it produces white steam that is cold. It uses an ultrasonic transducer that physically throws small droplets of water into the air. These small droplets may evaporate in short order. But, in any case, they will contain whatever the original water contained - salt, bacteria, medicine or anything else. If they are used with tap water, they will put out a fine powder, which is the minerals that were contained in the water - which is why they are sometimes sold with a demineralization cartridge.

Only the fourth type of humidifier (or some variation on it, some scheme for physically pushing water drops into the air) will be able to get salt into the water that is in the air. Nebulizers are commonly used to dispense medication, and one scheme that they use which is purely mechanical is to create an area of low pressure, either with a venturi or a fast moving air stream and to use that to suck the liquid into the air stream where it will be "atomized".

I've never looked closely at a cpap humidifier, but I don't think it has any such mechanism - the humidifier just passes the lightly pressurized air - either over the heated or unheated water - which might have wicks in it to help the evaporation process.

So, unlike a nebulizer, putting salt water in your humidifier won't change anything - except the degree of placebo effect. Of course, if whatever you put in the nebulizer will evaporate at room temperature, say, alcohol or menthol or camphor, it could have a real effect on you. My offhand guess is that it won't be a good effect.

I have used a saline nose spray and it worked great to moisten my nose - but that is the key - spray. Fast moving air draws salt water into the air stream and atomizes it - mechanically drawing water droplets into the airstream. Without a mechanism like that, you are not going to get salt into the air.

By the way, someone asserted that there was nothing corrosive in tap water. That is false. Most tap water from municipal systems is chlorinated. Chlorine that is added to chlorinate is fairly corrosive. In Florida you could test for the chlorine on a swimming pool tester and it was usually right in the mid range where you wanted your swimming pool chlorine - you could use this effect to see that your carbon filters for drinking water were, in fact, working - they would take that chlorine right out of the testable range when they were effective.[/code]


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krousseau
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Post by krousseau » Thu May 11, 2006 5:35 pm

Tomjax, Ric, & Reval I think one of the basic differences in how we are looking at "facts and established scientific principals" may be that you consider them unchanging. I don't know when you were in "basic high school" science classes but for me it was long enough ago that they have made some new discoveries in all the sciences.

Fact-bacteria can live in some very poor conditions-including distilled water
Fact-bacteria can extract nutrition from organic molecules in the air
Fact-bacteria can live in very high temperature environments like hot water pipes (some hospitals periodically "superheat" their hot water systems to try to eliminate organisms that like water)
Some of these bacteria have not shown any pathogenicity in humans-some have.
Add these facts to the fact that bacteria mutate-hence we now have antibiotic resistant bacteria and we have bacteria that were once considered nonpathogenic that now are.
Bacteria and other organisms like parasites, prions and viruses are doing quite well in this world-they do not need our help.
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.....Galbraith's Law

NJ Nick

Re: vapor

Post by NJ Nick » Thu May 11, 2006 6:57 pm

tomjax wrote:
This is why there is no danger of getting bacteria in the hose- even if you use water from the toilet or the creek.
I know exaggeration is being used by this poster to make a point. However, statements like this should have no place on this forum. My sleep technician has told me stories about cpap patients equipment that he examines and believe me some patients need no encouragement to keep their equipment in filthy condition.

By the way, I regularly visit this site and consider it one of the very best. Keep up the good work.


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Re: vapor

Post by Guest » Thu May 11, 2006 7:19 pm

NJ Nick wrote:
tomjax wrote:
This is why there is no danger of getting bacteria in the hose- even if you use water from the toilet or the creek.
I know exaggeration is being used by this poster to make a point. However, statements like this should have no place on this forum. My sleep technician has told me stories about cpap patients equipment that he examines and believe me some patients need no encouragement to keep their equipment in filthy condition.
Thanks for the warning, NJ Nick. I was just now starting to fill up my humidifier with 1/2 toilet water and 1/2 creek water when I saw your post. Whew! Just in the nick of time!


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Post by Guest » Thu May 11, 2006 9:36 pm

davem wrote:I'm new to this message board but not to CPAP. I've been on CPAP therapy for 9 years now...and I'm still using my original Remstar Choice and F&P HH. Actually, I just replaced my original hose, Adam circuit headgear and nasal pillows this month.
davem-- you have used the same nasal pillows for 9 years?


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Post by davem » Thu May 11, 2006 9:54 pm

Yep! It's amazing how long they'll last if you keep them clean.


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Post by unclebob » Thu May 11, 2006 10:07 pm

Hi vapor experts,

Kind of skimmed through this post and am somewhat relieved. But this is just what got me worried again. You know, relief.

Everyone agrees there are bacteria and viruses mass producing in the hospitable biosphere that we Apniacs call " the ever faithful and not to be without - heated humidifier" So it occurred to me, with all these, in the unforgettable words of departed Carl Sagan - "billions and billions" of bacterium and virisium (what do you think of that new word? Neat huh!) just what exactly do they do for relief?

I know if my wife and I are in the car and she needs relief, I sure as hell don't get it. She makes me as uncomfortable as she is. If I need relief, no problem, just cross my legs four times.

As you know there is more to relief than just crossing you legs. No problem when you're alone but one must also master the silent escape when with friends or even in a crowded room.

Now, talking about crowded rooms; just imagen those "billions and billions" of little critters in the confines of your heated humidifier with only one avenue of escape.

Do you want to take a short break to trundle down the hall, just for a little relief you understand. What the hell, go ahead, make your dash.

Are you starting to understand why I am a little worried? It's not so much that the little critters in my humidifier have to pee, that can be a good thing and actually save on the cost of distilled water. Nor is it that they may simply just pass a little gas (a fart, so to speak); can you imagen if all the billions and billions of critters all farted at the same time? Would that be the equivalent of a little snore or just a peak in the pressure? Really starts to get complicated, keeps me awake just thinking about it!

My real concern is the effect of - you guessed it - a wet fart! Seems to me that if only a small fraction of the billions and billions of bacterium and virisium were uncouth enough to let it happen there could be dangerous consequences at the other end of the hose. Sure, the critters themselves are too big to travel the six foot hose distance - but what about their discharge.

Take a deep breath and think about it.

We'll talk about eggs later!

When you go to sleep tonight, listen to the swoosh - and wonder.

Pleasant dreams.

Bob F

unclebob

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Post by Wulfman » Thu May 11, 2006 10:25 pm

Thanks, Unclebob.

Pleasant dreams to you, too.
I'm glad you've finally put this into perspective and in a way that I can understand.

Best wishes,

Den


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Post by Gidgie » Thu May 11, 2006 10:41 pm

Thank you, UncleBob.........you have my undying gratitude......I NEEDED that!

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Ric
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Post by Ric » Thu May 11, 2006 10:46 pm

If ever a thread needed to die... <rolls eyes>

There are a few take-home messages to be gleaned from all this (imho). Otherwise, consider me ten-four over-and-out on this topic:

1. For normal people that put regular distilled water in their HH, and rinse it occasionally, there is nothing to be learned from this entire dialogue (polylogue?). But as was suggested, the screaming and yelling has been wildly entertaining, if not enlightening. Or whatever.

2. Imaginary germs are the WORST kind. Hence worthy of protracted debate and deserve our full attention.

3. Imaginary germs have special properties. They can evaporate, then reappear, they have legs, they can walk through plastic, they conspire, they have voting rights, they are eligible for social security and prescription drug benefits, and they really ARE out to get us. I should mention that interestingly, imaginary germs have REAL names. I'm still trying to understand that. Give me time.

4. Fortunately, imaginary methods work best on imaginary problems, hence all the weird things people put in their HH to "cleanse" it, and the ceremonial rites that are required to make people feel good about their HH.

5. Sterility (no adjectives required) is not the goal. What we're striving for is SUPER-DUPER WHIZ-BANG STUNNINGLY AWESOME sterility. I'm convinced that some here have in fact achieved NEGATIVE bacterial counts in their HH. (something that has no meaning with REAL germs, but for imaginary germs the math works out).

6. Taking a water sample from the HH and walking it over to the lab and culturing it to see what grows is considered CHEATING. If somebody tries that, the only proper thing to do is close your eyes, plug your ears, shake your head while going bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-I-can't HEEEEAR YOOOOU! (doesn't matter which side of the debate you find yourself, still works)

7. It is NOT FAIR do draw comparisons between the relatively sterile environment of the HH with it's multiple filters, distilled water, the maybe up to several germs a day (real or imaginary) that could MAYBE slip through the system, VERSUS sleeping on an ordinary pillow with BAZILLIONS of REAL germs, with BAD-SOUNDING NAMES, and danders and pollen and dried slobber and exfoliated skin and the dust mites that live there and ... I'm describing a CLEAN pillow! LINK: DUST MITES. That's considered CHANGING THE SUBJECT. Don't even go there. (Although I think it deserves it's own thread). Seriously, sometime in the middle of the night turn off the blower and lay there quietly, listen carefully, you can almost HEAR them collectively munching away inside your pillow. YES REALLY !!!

8. The type and quantity of germs is not an issue. The REAL issue is whether the germs were acquired CORRECTLY. Acquiring germs through the HH is absolutely positively INCORRECT. Even ONE germ is ONE too many, and cause for shame. Acquiring a million times as many germs from your pillow is not a problem. That is the CORRECT way (one of many) to acquire germs. And besides, it's "natural". Allowing your chihuahua to lick your face all over is also correct.

9. For people who use the HH in the regular way, but ALSO can't resist one or more of the common alternate uses for which we are famous (culturing yogurt, raising trout, sprouting alfalfa, breeding chinchillas, ant farms, stashing trail mix, hatching parakeets, bobbing for raisins, cultivating mushrooms, truffles, etc.) I will agree wholeheartedly with some of the methods suggested earlier. DOUSE it in triply sterilized pasteurized distilled water, add a few BRILLO pads, some colloidal plutonium, trinitrotoluene... the list is endless. (the latter is effective, but hard on plastic, not recommended).