Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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DreamStalker
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by DreamStalker » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:11 pm

Todzo wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:
Todzo wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:Of course there is a complicated cascade of issues ... but it all starts with a lack of oxygen. Provide the oxygen and cascade of issues associated with apnea are resolved.

apnea /ap·ne·a/ (ˈapnēə)
Noun
Temporary cessation of breathing or respiration, esp. during sleep.

respiration /res·pi·ra·tion/ (res″pĭ-ra´shun)
1. the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide between the atmosphere and the body cells, including ventilation (inhalation and exhalation); diffusion of oxygen from alveoli to blood and of carbon dioxide from blood to alveoli; and transport of oxygen to and carbon dioxide from body cells.
2. ventilation (1).
3. cellular respiration; the exergonic metabolic processes in living cells by which molecular oxygen is taken in, organic substances are oxidized, free energy is released, and carbon dioxide, water, and other oxidized products are given off by the cell.
Talk to us about what happens in the human body if there is too little carbon dioxide. How does that affect circulation? How does that affect metabolism?
Average composition of the air we breathe:

Nitrogen -- N2 -- 78.084%
Oxygen -- O2 -- 20.9476%
Argon -- Ar -- 0.934%
Carbon Dioxide -- CO2 -- 0.0314%
Neon -- Ne -- 0.001818%
Methane -- CH4 -- 0.0002%
Helium -- He -- 0.000524%

As you can see, CO2 pales in comparison to O2. Our bodies produce CO2 as a by-product of respiration in concentrations greater than average air composition. When we have an apnea, it is the lack of O2 that is critical ... not a lack of CO2. In other words, hypocapnia (the lack of CO2) is not caused by apnea ... quite the contrary, CO2 builds up in the blood stream (hypercapnia) when we go into apnea ... hence the symptoms being headache, confusion, lethargy, progressing to convulsions, unconsciousness, and even death.
And also please talk to us about what happens proceeding the apnea.

Thanks!

Todzo
That all depends ... for obstructive apnea, sleep arousal, maybe restricted breathing, maybe snoring, airway narrows and leads to complete obstruction of the throat.

Please watch this video and answer your own questions.

http://www.resmed.com/us/multimedia/und ... 40x380.swf

Thanks!
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by Todzo » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:01 pm

DreamStalker wrote:
Todzo wrote: And also please talk to us about what happens proceeding the apnea.

Thanks!

Todzo
That all depends ... for obstructive apnea, sleep arousal, maybe restricted breathing, maybe snoring, airway narrows and leads to complete obstruction of the throat.

Please watch this video and answer your own questions.

http://www.resmed.com/us/multimedia/und ... 40x380.swf

Thanks!
What!? Have you never heard of long-term facilitation!?

I think you would do well to broaden your reading base.

e.g.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2822673/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2822673/

"In conclusion, despite the presence of ventilatory long-term facilitation, the increase in the hypocapnic ventilatory response after the exposure to episodic hypoxia induced a significant decrease in the CO2 reserve."

http://www.journalsleep.org/Articles/290115.pdf
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by DreamStalker » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:18 pm

Todzo wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:
Todzo wrote: And also please talk to us about what happens proceeding the apnea.

Thanks!

Todzo
That all depends ... for obstructive apnea, sleep arousal, maybe restricted breathing, maybe snoring, airway narrows and leads to complete obstruction of the throat.

Please watch this video and answer your own questions.

http://www.resmed.com/us/multimedia/und ... 40x380.swf

Thanks!
What!? Have you never heard of long-term facilitation!?

I think you would do well to broaden your reading base.

e.g.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2822673/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2822673/

"In conclusion, despite the presence of ventilatory long-term facilitation, the increase in the hypocapnic ventilatory response after the exposure to episodic hypoxia induced a significant decrease in the CO2 reserve."

http://www.journalsleep.org/Articles/290115.pdf
Well the second link is the same as the first. The third link takes a long time to load, is boring, and I have more important things to do at the moment.

The first link ... "We hypothesized that episodic hypoxia (EH) leads to alterations in chemoreflex characteristics that might promote the development of central apnea in sleeping humans." ...

"Our study revealed several significant findings after EH during NREM sleep. First, EH was followed by a period of sustained increase in VI and a reduction in the eupneic PetCO2, indicative of ventilatory LTF. Second, EH was associated with an increased hypocapnic ventilatory response and narrowing of the CO2 reserve; this was not observed after the sham exposure. Third, the AT did not change after EH. Finally, the increase in the hypocapnic ventilatory response after the exposure to EH was observed even though progressive enhancement of the HVR was not evident during the exposure to EH. To our knowledge, this is the first report of the effect of LTF on the AT in sleeping humans."

What is hypoxia? ... a lack of oxygen in the blood stream. How does one develop hypoxia? Answer: Through restricted breathing and/or apnea. You have your cause and effect reversed.

Third link ...
"Study Objective:
To determine whether (1) postmenopausal women have a higher apnea threshold than premenopausal women and men and (2) hormone replacement therapy would decrease the apnea threshold in
postmenopausal women

Conclusions:
These data support the hypothesis that estrogens and pro-gestins positively influence the apnea threshold and control of breathing during non-rapid eye movement sleep.".

Uhhh ok. So why should I care about long-term facilitation? As a middle-aged man, why should I care about estrogens and pro-gestins?

Your suggested reading base is useless to me.

I suggest you and everyone else on this forum broaden your reading base and read some Dmitry Orlov

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/

Far more useful reading base than what you suggest.
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by Todzo » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:02 pm

DreamStalker wrote:How does one develop hypoxia? Answer: Through restricted breathing and/or apnea.
While at my desk I can stop breathing (simple end of an exhale) for thirty seconds and not see my blood oxygen saturation reading move. Perhaps it will move two percent during that time. Likely I will not see it move more than two percent during the time of no breathing nor for the thirty seconds following.

Yet almost built in to some definitions of hypopnea is “3% in ten seconds”. And if I wear the same pulse oximeter during a time when I am having apneas I see much more rapid desaturations.

DreamStalker! Why do those with Obstructive Sleep Apnea desaturate so quickly!?

In light of the fact that Tom Sietas can hold his breath for twenty two minutes and twenty two seconds and still be conscious I think my “at the desk” rate is very real (see: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ained.html ).

What on earth causes those with Obsturctive Sleep Apnea to loose oxygen saturation in their blood so quickly? What causes this?
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by DreamStalker » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:36 pm

Sorry.

You just don't get it.

Go back to square one. Do not pass go. Do not collect $100.


apnea /ap·ne·a/ (ˈapnēə)
Noun
Temporary cessation of breathing or respiration, esp. during sleep.

respiration /res·pi·ra·tion/ (res″pĭ-ra´shun)
1. the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide between the atmosphere and the body cells, including ventilation (inhalation and exhalation); diffusion of oxygen from alveoli to blood and of carbon dioxide from blood to alveoli; and transport of oxygen to and carbon dioxide from body cells.
2. ventilation (1).
3. cellular respiration; the exergonic metabolic processes in living cells by which molecular oxygen is taken in, organic substances are oxidized, free energy is released, and carbon dioxide, water, and other oxidized products are given off by the cell.

Homework assignment:

1) Define Hypoxia and compare the definition to loss of oxygen saturation in blood.

2) What cause this? (hint: Go back to square one)
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by Todzo » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:26 pm

Did you want me to define the hypoxia that results from hypocapnic carbon dioxide blood gas levels and the resultant hemoglobin dissociation issues as well as the the circulation issues?

Should I include the circulation issues brought into the picture by the stress hormones? Or did you want me to work on a general definition of hypoxia from hypoxemia?

Should I include the normal volumes of air expected to be used during the "at rest in bed state"?

I know I have a long way to go to "get it" but somehow I feel that I may not be the only one in that boat here.
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by DreamStalker » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:37 pm

Well ... ok, if you deliberately hyperventilate while asleep ... sure why not. Maybe you will pass out and stop asking me senseless questions that I have absolutely no interest in answering.
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by Todzo » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:07 pm

DreamStalker wrote:Well ... ok, if you deliberately hyperventilate while asleep ... sure why not. Maybe you will pass out and stop asking me senseless questions that I have absolutely no interest in answering.
Perhaps if you get some good sleep you will be better able to answer some of them.
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by DreamStalker » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:13 pm

Todzo wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:Well ... ok, if you deliberately hyperventilate while asleep ... sure why not. Maybe you will pass out and stop asking me senseless questions that I have absolutely no interest in answering.
Perhaps if you get some good sleep you will be better able to answer some of them.

Woo hoo !!! Oh thank you thank you thank you ... I was hoping I would get some sleep tonight.

I doubt I'll have any interest in answering any more questions from you about what causes OSA and O2 desats.

If you don't understand after all these posts, you'll just have to accept that you never will. Just keep using your CPAP and you should be ok.
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by Todzo » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:18 pm

Todzo wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:How does one develop hypoxia? Answer: Through restricted breathing and/or apnea.
While at my desk I can stop breathing (simple end of an exhale) for thirty seconds and not see my blood oxygen saturation reading move. Perhaps it will move two percent during that time. Likely I will not see it move more than two percent during the time of no breathing nor for the thirty seconds following.

Yet almost built in to some definitions of hypopnea is “3% in ten seconds”. And if I wear the same pulse oximeter during a time when I am having apneas I see much more rapid desaturations.

DreamStalker! Why do those with Obstructive Sleep Apnea desaturate so quickly!?

In light of the fact that Tom Sietas can hold his breath for twenty two minutes and twenty two seconds and still be conscious I think my “at the desk” rate is very real (see: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ained.html ).

What on earth causes those with Obsturctive Sleep Apnea to loose oxygen saturation in their blood so quickly? What causes this?
I have asked this question of many good doctors. None could provide an explanation.

One did agree that my explanation was probable.

If someone does have a good explanation I would love to hear it.

Thanks!!

Todzo
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by DreamStalker » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:38 pm

Todzo wrote: While at my desk I can stop breathing (simple end of an exhale) for thirty seconds and not see my blood oxygen saturation reading move. Perhaps it will move two percent during that time. Likely I will not see it move more than two percent during the time of no breathing nor for the thirty seconds following.

Yet almost built in to some definitions of hypopnea is “3% in ten seconds”. And if I wear the same pulse oximeter during a time when I am having apneas I see much more rapid desaturations.

DreamStalker! Why do those with Obstructive Sleep Apnea desaturate so quickly!?

Thanks!!

Todzo
Have you considered that maybe you're a mystery to yourself?
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by Todzo » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:18 am

Todzo wrote:
Todzo wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:How does one develop hypoxia? Answer: Through restricted breathing and/or apnea.
While at my desk I can stop breathing (simple end of an exhale) for thirty seconds and not see my blood oxygen saturation reading move. Perhaps it will move two percent during that time. Likely I will not see it move more than two percent during the time of no breathing nor for the thirty seconds following.

Yet almost built in to some definitions of hypopnea is “3% in ten seconds”. And if I wear the same pulse oximeter during a time when I am having apneas I see much more rapid desaturations.

DreamStalker! Why do those with Obstructive Sleep Apnea desaturate so quickly!?

In light of the fact that Tom Sietas can hold his breath for twenty two minutes and twenty two seconds and still be conscious I think my “at the desk” rate is very real (see: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ained.html ).

What on earth causes those with Obsturctive Sleep Apnea to loose oxygen saturation in their blood so quickly? What causes this?
I have asked this question of many good doctors. None could provide an explanation.

One did agree that my explanation was probable.

If someone does have a good explanation I would love to hear it.

Thanks!!

Todzo
In terms of Oxygen Levels and Sleep Apnea I believe the most important question simply is "why do those with Sleep Apnea desaturate so quickly". Blood oxygen levels sould not go down that fast. We are at rest in bed and are not using our large muscle groups. The oxygen level should stay up even if we do not breath for ten or twenty seconds. Yet it drops like a stone?!?

Why????
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by bharatilts@yahoo.co.in » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:07 am

So, should I mean, overall, that if I have a satisfactory oxymetry, I should not worry so much about AHI ?

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by 49er » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:15 am

bharatilts@yahoo.co.in wrote:So, should I mean, overall, that if I have a satisfactory oxymetry, I should not worry so much about AHI ?
Well, mine apparently was fine but there is no doubt in my mind I have severe apnea. Unfortunately, I had a home study test which probably had a lot of inconsistencies.

It is my understanding that you can have perfectly normal O2 levels and still have sleep apnea.

Did you have any kind of sleep study test or just one for O2 levels?

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by johnthomasmacdonald » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:30 am

My sleep doctor claims that even if your O2 never drop below 90%, if it bounces around a lot it will still do damage to the heart. THe ups and downs to the damage - whether that is true or not I didn't check the literature.

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