Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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49er
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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by 49er » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:47 am

johnthomasmacdonald wrote:My sleep doctor claims that even if your O2 never drop below 90%, if it bounces around a lot it will still do damage to the heart. THe ups and downs to the damage - whether that is true or not I didn't check the literature.
That makes alot of sense John. I mean, if you stop breathing frequently while asleep, that can't be good for your heart no matter where the O2 level is.

49er
Last edited by 49er on Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by DreamStalker » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:54 am

Todzo wrote:
Todzo wrote:
Todzo wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:How does one develop hypoxia? Answer: Through restricted breathing and/or apnea.
While at my desk I can stop breathing (simple end of an exhale) for thirty seconds and not see my blood oxygen saturation reading move. Perhaps it will move two percent during that time. Likely I will not see it move more than two percent during the time of no breathing nor for the thirty seconds following.

Yet almost built in to some definitions of hypopnea is “3% in ten seconds”. And if I wear the same pulse oximeter during a time when I am having apneas I see much more rapid desaturations.

DreamStalker! Why do those with Obstructive Sleep Apnea desaturate so quickly!?

In light of the fact that Tom Sietas can hold his breath for twenty two minutes and twenty two seconds and still be conscious I think my “at the desk” rate is very real (see: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ained.html ).

What on earth causes those with Obsturctive Sleep Apnea to loose oxygen saturation in their blood so quickly? What causes this?
I have asked this question of many good doctors. None could provide an explanation.

One did agree that my explanation was probable.

If someone does have a good explanation I would love to hear it.

Thanks!!

Todzo
In terms of Oxygen Levels and Sleep Apnea I believe the most important question simply is "why do those with Sleep Apnea desaturate so quickly". Blood oxygen levels sould not go down that fast. We are at rest in bed and are not using our large muscle groups. The oxygen level should stay up even if we do not breath for ten or twenty seconds. Yet it drops like a stone?!?

Why????
Everyone has different metabolic rates of cellular respiration, different heart rates, different breathing rates, different breathing air volumes, different blood volumes, different blood oxygen capacities, etc.. Who said that oxygen levels "should" stay up even if we do not breathe for 10 to 20 seconds? How quickly it drops depends on lots of things. Just because a professional diver can hold his/her breath for long periods of time does not mean everyone can. If you are truly that concerned (inquisitive) of your blood oxygen capacity, go find yourself a grad student to convince to do their thesis/dissertation on why YOU are so special when it comes to blood oxygen characteristics.

But if you are trying to convince everyone that low blood CO2 levels cause OSA, you will be ridiculed, and rightly so. Best wishes with your enigma.
President-pretender, J. Biden, said "the DNC has built the largest voter fraud organization in US history". Too bad they didn’t build the smartest voter fraud organization and got caught.

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by 49er » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:17 am

But if you are trying to convince everyone that low blood CO2 levels cause OSA, you will be ridiculed, and rightly so. Best wishes with your enigma.
Great point Dreamstalker that there is no way you can attribute the cause of OSA to one specific factor, especially since there are so many complex mechanisms that occur that cause sleep apnea. For example, I saw some information in a medical journal which unfortunately I can't find that suggested that nasal congestion can lead to sleep apnea. I am not sure I am summarizing it correctly but it seemed to be saying the act of mouth breathing from the congestion could cause the airway to narrow which would lead to apnea.

Since I have had chronic nasal congestion, I found that information very interesting. But I know that there is no way I am going to get immediate answers unless I also wanted to find a graduate student for help since most folks in the medical profession aren't focusing in this area.

I guess my point is Todzo is that sometimes, you simply have to accept that people on a forum board aren't going to be able to answer all your questions and it is best to find another outlet for your curiosity. I think people try very hard to on this board but there are limits to what they can provide. And I don't say that as a negative by the way.

Finally, Todzo, can you please stop inferring that stress causes apnea? That logic frankly comes across as very insulting even though I know that isn't your intention.

Yes, stress can worsen apnea, no doubt about it. But as far as causing it, that simply is not true.

49er

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by Todzo » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:14 pm

49er wrote:
Dreamstalker wrote:But if you are trying to convince everyone that low blood CO2 levels cause OSA, you will be ridiculed, and rightly so. Best wishes with your enigma.
I strongly believe that the hypoxia stemming from the low blood circulation and oxygen transport issues which are brought into the scene by the hypocapnic (low blood CO2) excursions that occur with Obstructive Sleep Apnea (OSA) are indeed a key element in the development of the pathology of OSA. I also see that it is quite possible that the hypoxia those hypocapnic excursions cause also occurs during the daytime and that the constant insults to metabolism contribute to the development of OSA.

Feel free to present actual evidence to the contrary if you are able.
49er wrote:Great point Dreamstalker that there is no way you can attribute the cause of OSA to one specific factor, especially since there are so many complex mechanisms that occur that cause sleep apnea.
I have never thought that there was a single cause. If that is Dreamstalker's point I agree with it.
49er wrote: For example, I saw some information in a medical journal which unfortunately I can't find that suggested that nasal congestion can lead to sleep apnea. I am not sure I am summarizing it correctly but it seemed to be saying the act of mouth breathing from the congestion could cause the airway to narrow which would lead to apnea.
As I read this I enjoy a clear nose on a sunny spring day. I used to be like those many others who are running to the pharmacy for allergy medications. My eucapnic breathing has advantages.
49er wrote:Since I have had chronic nasal congestion, I found that information very interesting. But I know that there is no way I am going to get immediate answers unless I also wanted to find a graduate student for help since most folks in the medical profession aren't focusing in this area.

I guess my point [to] Todzo is that sometimes, you simply have to accept that people on a forum board aren't going to be able to answer all your questions and it is best to find another outlet for your curiosity. I think people try very hard to on this board but there are limits to what they can provide. And I don't say that as a negative by the way.
Last summer I spent about 400 hours reading medical papers. I read other forums, books, Internet articles and seminars. I do not count on this resource for the information we need.
49er wrote:Finally, Todzo, can you please stop inferring that stress causes apnea?
I am sorry 49er but I really do believe that stress is a major source of the insults that the body falls down while trying to field and so gets sick with OSA.
49er wrote:That logic frankly comes across as very insulting even though I know that isn't your intention.
We all have stress. I do not understand how stress being a major contributing factor to OSA insults anyone. Please explain.
49er wrote:Yes, stress can worsen apnea, no doubt about it. But as far as causing it, that simply is not true.

49er
Stress causes inflammation and OSA is well known as a disease of inflammation. Stress tends one to over breathing with all of its hypocapnic insults. I still say stress is a major contributing factor to the development and maintenance of OSA. It is a reality I dealt with by moving to a much lower stress city and I am very glad that I did.

I regret that we disagree about this 49er. I honestly respect you regardless!

Have a great weekend!

Todzo
May any shills trolls sockpuppets or astroturfers at cpaptalk.com be like chaff before the wind!

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by Todzo » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:22 am

DreamStalker wrote:
Todzo wrote:
In terms of Oxygen Levels and Sleep Apnea I believe the most important question simply is "why do those with Sleep Apnea desaturate so quickly". Blood oxygen levels sould not go down that fast. We are at rest in bed and are not using our large muscle groups. The oxygen level should stay up even if we do not breath for ten or twenty seconds. Yet it drops like a stone?!?

Why????
Everyone has different metabolic rates of cellular respiration, different heart rates, different breathing rates, different breathing air volumes, different blood volumes, different blood oxygen capacities, etc..
Which of course vary constantly with metabolic load AND stress levels.
DreamStalker wrote:Who said that oxygen levels "should" stay up even if we do not breathe for 10 to 20 seconds?
It is true that I have spent a lot of time using a “breathing for minimum heart rate with exertion held constant” technique to help me breath with the most efficient (best metabolism) blood gas levels. So perhaps the fact that I have repeated the experiment more than ten times and got the same results is true only for me.

Still my oxygen levels dropped like a stone at night using my pulse oximeter but not my CPAP. At night, in bed. Not running the mile. Not even walking up hill. Not even sitting in my chair as I did for the experiments mentioned above but at rest in bed.
DreamStalker wrote:How quickly it drops depends on lots of things.
I just mentioned a few of those.
DreamStalker wrote:Just because a professional diver can hold his/her breath for long periods of time does not mean everyone can.
That was well covered in the referenced article.
DreamStalker wrote: If you are truly that concerned (inquisitive) of your blood oxygen capacity
?? Where does this come from ??
DreamStalker wrote:, go find yourself a grad student to convince to do their thesis/dissertation on why YOU are so special when it comes to blood oxygen characteristics.
I have little interest in how special or not I may be. I am very interested in finding the actual cause(s) of Obstructive Sleep Apnea so we can start working on a real cure instead of these silly, crazy, does not work to well mechanical splints called xPAP therapy.

In terms of connecting with research and research I would love to see – working on it!!!
DreamStalker wrote:But if you are trying to convince everyone that low blood CO2 levels cause OSA, you will be ridiculed, and rightly so.
All I am doing here is to point out that the bodies reaction to the constant strangling presented to it by the constant cutting off or at least notable reduction in air flow (from the standpoint of the person experiencing that reduction) is a hugh part of what happens in Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome and Obstructive Sleep Apnea.

The tipping point seems to be the unusable stress hormones. They increase inflammation and so increase restriction. So what started as a fight becomes a war. A second tipping point appears to happen as the excursions into the hypocapnic realm become severe – which appears to hyper-stimulate breathing. Those of us who have awakened to breathing hard with our heart beating out of our chest and had a lot of trouble quieting down, certainly with the mask on, have seen the consequences of that war I do believe.

Well I would love to chat but I need to go gear up for another 400 hours this summer. And finally getting in my 10K steps a day, and upper body development and Qigong and …

You did not answer the question -

In terms of Oxygen Levels and Sleep Apnea I believe the most important question simply is "why do those with Sleep Apnea desaturate so quickly". Blood oxygen levels should not go down that fast. We are at rest in bed and are not using our large muscle groups. The oxygen level should stay up even if we do not breath for ten or twenty seconds. Yet it drops like a stone?!?

Why????
May any shills trolls sockpuppets or astroturfers at cpaptalk.com be like chaff before the wind!

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by racprops » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:29 am

Todzo you answer and ask some deep questions...

What I get from all of this: IS I really want and need a recording pulse oximeters and I am glad I ordered this unit:

http://www.pulseoxstore.com/Wrist-Oximeters.html

Cheap (and all I can afford)and perhaps not 100% accurate but it will report in sleepyhead and give me a fair idea how I am doing...

I really think this thread is the one of the most important ones I have started and been a part of.
Thanks everyone.

Rich

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by HoseCrusher » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:46 pm

It has been suggested to me that when we sleep most of the body shuts down.

The brain uses most of our oxygen followed by our large muscles.

While awake we can hyperventilate a little and have a small reserve of oxygen. If you simply hold your breath while awake it takes a while for your oxygen saturation levels to drop. If you try this after some exercise, the delay between stopping breathing and your oxygen saturation levels dropping is a lot shorter.

Now let's picture yourself sleeping and relaxed. Your breathing slows down and your heart rate also slows down. Brain function shuts down and goes into sleep mode. The bodies total demand for oxygen is greatly reduced and very little reserves are available.

All of the sudden your airway shuts.

After a very short time your brain awakes screaming

I NEED OXYGEN!!!

Your heart speeds up and there may be signals sent to large muscle groups to move you around to get the airway opened up.

This sudden arousal uses up a lot of oxygen and the saturation in your blood drops quickly.

This sudden and somewhat violent reaction produces adrenalin and other hormones in something similar to the fight or flight syndrome.

You wake up and gasp for air. Things now start to go back to normal sleep, but you have to deal with the various hormones that were used to startle you awake.

This is for one event. Some have many events per hour. Each event builds upon the previous one and you end up hung over from excessive hormones and have less energy to face the day.

Just as awake breathing is different than sleep breathing, awake oxygen saturation drops are different than sleeping oxygen saturation drops. While sleeping the body only takes in as much oxygen as is needed for restful sleep. Any reserves are quickly used up and after that the body is startled to arouse and take care of the problem.

Observing a "peaceful" death reveals that the brain keeps kicking and screaming and trying to get the heart and lungs working again. In the end there are very high levels of stress hormones left over from this struggle. These hormones can damage the body and it is fortunate that we woke up in response to our brain crying for oxygen prior to xPAP therapy, and that we have eliminated this problem by using xPAP therapy.

Now we can heal and jump out of bed ready to greet the day full of energy.

Well, at least that is the goal...

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by sickwithapnea17 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:43 am

do high asv/bipap settings really help break the overshoot cycle and normalize CO2/O2 levels?

I just keep demasking and have little success on asv and oxygen at many settings
18/14 bipap st

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Re: Oxygen levels And sleep apnea.

Post by sickwithapnea17 » Sat May 04, 2013 12:13 am

I think klonopin a benza helps a lot, but it seems less effective the last couple of months and I still damask on the mirage Quattro (it's kind of tight fitting) and Ps max 12cm epap 5cm so a max pressure of 17cm. and then I seem to get apnea attacks on the lower settings which take days to recover from
18/14 bipap st