Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

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NotLazyJustTired
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Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by NotLazyJustTired » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:59 am

My S9 AutoSet did not come equipped with the ClimateLine hose and since I was paying out of pocket anyway, I ordered it online. I figured it would help with my rhinitis and chronic cough. I was excited to hear about the rainout prevention of the ClimateLine.

I woke up this morning to the pleasantries of rainout and thought, "What the...?" So I spent some quality time with the clinician manual. When I put the ClimateLine on, I set it in the clinicians menu to "Manual" reasoning that this would give me more flexibility. And it does allow you to set temperature independent of humidity. What I didn't know and know now, is that rainout prevention is disabled in manual mode. That stands to reason if you think about it. If I am reading the manual correctly, there is a table in there that seems to indicate that in auto mode humidity is a function of the temperature setting. I am going to experiment with this and see.

I just thought I would post this so other might not trip over that same rock.

Moral of the story: Read your clinician manual! There was a lot more information in there than I expected. Beyond just defining the settings, it also describes how the machine operates. For example I was interested to read that flow data is collected every 40ms or 25Hz while most other data is collected once every 2 seconds.

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Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: SleepyHead software; Pressure 7-15
"So oftentimes it happens, that we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key."
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msradar65
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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by msradar65 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:19 am

yeap, I knew that all along. rainout only works on auto mode. In manual its like any other none heated hose. lol
Diagnosed 08/31/10. Titration 9/02/10. Started CPAP 11/01/10. Auto mode 10-15cm. Alternate mask GoLife for her. Back up mask Full-life full face w/Pad-a-cheek mask liner. Comtec CMS F50 wrist pulse oximeter. Sobakawa Cloud Pillow, Sleepyhead software

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Pugsy
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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by Pugsy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:37 am

One other thing to think about....rain out can occur at the nasal pillow (or nasal mask) level and it be totally unrelated to whether a person even uses a humidifier....heated hose...hose cozy or whatever.

Here's what happens...we exhale into the nasal pillow (or other mask) and that exhaled breath contains moisture and it can condense in the nasal pillow area despite rain out being prevented very well up to the nasal pillow area. There simply isn't enough warm air making its way from the end of the heated hose to the nasal pillow to stop the cooling and the release of moisture in the nasal pillow area.

Heated hoses do a great job preventing rain out in the long hose but it doesn't always prevent rain out at the mask level.
Even at the highest temp available the warm air starts to cool once it leaves the long hose and by the time it gets to the mask level..it's cool enough that it can't hold the moisture content of the air because it has the moisture content from the humidifier AND the moisture content of our own exhaled breath.

So...what to do. Several options.
Decrease the amount of moisture coming in from the humidifier. I personally don't like this option because my nose likes lots of added moisture.
Increase the bedroom temperature. I like a cold bedroom so not my first choice to do.
Add a hose cozy over the short hose from the long hose junction to the mask level junction. Viable option but the added weight of a hose cozy is potentially a PITA for adding weight and causing nasal pillows to pull out.
Add a barrel cozy or something similar to insulate the mask at the last level in hopes to keep that air a little warmer so it won't release the water. This is what I chose to do.

Even with the Climateline hose at 86 degrees...I get rain out only in the nasal pillows. Either I get a cold shower through the vent holes or I get to snort some water up my nose. The long hose is rain out free.
So for the Swift FX (and she has other barrel cozies) I opted for Padacheek's barrel cozy.
http://www.padacheek.com/PACSwiftII_Barrel_cozy.html
Not only does it do the job it was designed for..it is super comfy against the skin and I used it winter and summer just because it felt good.

Rain out won't hurt you but it is highly annoying. Finding the right humidity level to keep the nasal mucosa is more important to me though...so I don't want to reduce the amount of added moisture going into my nose. I prefer to try to keep the air warm enough at the mask level so the air isn't cooled to the point that condensation occurs.

So there are several options and each person can deal with it however they want.
So the Climateline (or any heated hose) isn't a guarantee that there won't be any rain out at all at the mask level. Main focus is for preventing rain out at the hose level...and believe me the noise that a few drops of water in the long hose will make is totally amazing...it would wake my husband. Sounds like a chainsaw at times.

Rain out at the mask level...it can happen despite the best heat a heated hose can provide just because the room air is so much cooler and the warm air from the heated hose gets cooled too much by the time it reaches the mask.

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chunkyfrog
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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by chunkyfrog » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:15 pm

It might be appropriate at this time to point out that Karen at Pad-a-Cheek offers
a pillow cozy for several brands of mask.
Edit: I see someone beat me to it.

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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by NotLazyJustTired » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:19 pm

chunkyfrog wrote:It might be appropriate at this time to point out that Karen at Pad-a-Cheek offers
a pillow cozy for several brands of mask.
Edit: I see someone beat me to it.
You gotta move faster than that to beat Pugsy to the punch.

Thanks to both of you; I did not know rainout in the pillows was a potential issue.

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"So oftentimes it happens, that we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key."
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Nooblakahn
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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by Nooblakahn » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:35 pm

Yeah.. I changed mine from the 72 it was set on to 78 for relief of pain from dental work. The machine goes through about twice as much water this way. So, this experiment confirms when in auto mode, the higher temperature does indeed increase the humidity.

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Sir NoddinOff
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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by Sir NoddinOff » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:51 pm

Pugsy wrote:One other thing to think about....rain out can occur at the nasal pillow (or nasal mask) level and it be totally unrelated to whether a person even uses a humidifier....heated hose...hose cozy or whatever.
Here's what happens...we exhale into the nasal pillow (or other mask) and that exhaled breath contains moisture and it can condense in the nasal pillow area despite rain out being prevented very well up to the nasal pillow area. There simply isn't enough warm air making its way from the end of the heated hose to the nasal pillow to stop the cooling and the release of moisture in the nasal pillow area.

Rain out at the mask level...it can happen despite the best heat a heated hose can provide just because the room air is so much cooler and the warm air from the heated hose gets cooled too much by the time it reaches the mask.

.
Yup, that's totally my experience and I wasn't too happy to discover it either.


Rainout, the Bane. Coming soon to theaters in your area (or in your hose)

Addendum: at least summer is coming to California and will hopefully give me a break.

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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by NotLazyJustTired » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:23 am

I switched to auto last night and dialed the temp up to 82. I was a little congested when I went to bed, but when I got up this morning both passages were wide open. Probably the clearest I've been in a while. Me likey! Me likey a lot!

If spring ever arrives, I'll start dialing it back down, but for now it's good.
Summers here in the Piedmont can get pretty humid, so it will be interesting to see what adjustments I'll need then...

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Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
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"So oftentimes it happens, that we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key."
...from The Eagles, "Already Gone"

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JamesW6175
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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine?

Post by JamesW6175 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:20 am

Never had any rainout with my equipment, have the ClimateLine hose, no cover, just fill the humidifier to the line in the tank. The temperature is set at 65 degrees , ramp up from 4 to 20 while sleeping. Use only distilled water in the tank, clean and refill daily.

I do sleep in a bedroom that has a ceiling fan that is on & blowing all the time. Also have the outside windows open for the cool night air.

Am I doing something wrong, or is it the combination of the equipment that I have?

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Last edited by JamesW6175 on Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pugsy
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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by Pugsy » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:53 am

JamesW6175 wrote:Never had any rainout with my equipment, have the ClimateLine hose, no cover, just fill the humidifier to the line in the tank. The temperature is set at 65 degrees , ramp up from 4 to 20 while sleeping. Use only distilled water in the tank, clean and refill daily.

Am I doing something wrong, or is it the combination of the equipment that I have?
No not doing anything wrong. It's just a combination of your equipment, your temperature setting, your ambient room humidity and temperature.

Did you know I have seen people who live in the high desert and don't even use the humidifier (my nasal passages cringe when I read that) and they still get rain out at the mask level though? People forget about the moisture in their own exhaled breath.
People like me who like LOTS of added moisture from the humidifier and cold bedrooms and already have probably a decent amount of room humidity (I use my humidifier at same settings with windows open raining outside)....pretty much know that rain out is something they are going to have to deal with. For me rain out is annoying but a quick annoyance...immediately fixed in some fashion but for me to dry my nasal mucosa out..and I have done that by accident...and it takes 3 days for my nose to get back to normal and it's a miserable 3 days so I will take a cold shower or a quick snort of water any day of the week because it doesn't last anymore than that brief second. I accept it and just try to do things to limit the annoyance.
Mainly it is a wintertime issue for me anyway.

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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by StuUnderPressure » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:18 pm

NotLazyJustTired wrote:If I am reading the manual correctly, there is a table in there that seems to indicate that in auto mode humidity is a function of the temperature setting. I am going to experiment with this and see.
I do understand that this is confusing because it is poorly written.

But, if you use the Auto Setting, the humidity remains at a constant 80% regardless of what temperature setting you use. That is why in the Auto Setting, the Humidity % canNOT be set.

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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by jlhog » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:22 pm

NotLazyJustTired wrote:My S9 AutoSet did not come equipped with the ClimateLine hose and since I was paying out of pocket anyway, I ordered it online. I figured it would help with my rhinitis and chronic cough.
Not to change the subject, but when I see some one with a chronic cough I must butt in. I had what the doctor termed a chronic cough for about 6 years. I found out myself what the problem was after seeing several doctors about the cough and maybe it is the cause of your cough also. If you take any medication that ends with "pril" it can and will cause a cough. The blood pressure meds was taking is what was causing my cough.

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chunkyfrog
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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by chunkyfrog » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:27 pm

Setting the humidity is a lot like tuning your favorite station on a very old radio.
Just when you think you've got it, you pull your hand away and . . .

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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by NotLazyJustTired » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:28 pm

Thanks for "butting in". I am taking a low dose of Lisonapropil (sic), a BP med. Doc thinks we will be able to knock it off after the apnea is under control. Although I think the nasal junk has been causing it longer than the meds

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Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: SleepyHead software; Pressure 7-15
"So oftentimes it happens, that we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key."
...from The Eagles, "Already Gone"

Sleep Well, Frank

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Re: Rainout with ClimateLine? You bet!

Post by jlhog » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:46 pm

NotLazyJustTired wrote:Thanks for "butting in". I am taking a low dose of Lisonapropil (sic), a BP med. Doc thinks we will be able to knock it off after the apnea is under control. Although I think the nasal junk has been causing it longer than the meds
Let me give you some advice. Get off the Lisonapropil NOW. That is what I was taking and it was a living hell. It took two months after switching BP meds to get the cough completely gone. I have worked with several other people that had the same issues. They switched meds and the cough is gone. That shit should not even be on the market. O wait the FDA gets money for that. Tell your doc flat out you want a different med for the BP. Please let me know what happens in a month or two. I am keeping a tally...........

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