Effectiveness of CPAP?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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retrodave15
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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by retrodave15 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:44 am

Pugsy wrote:And far too many folks give up prematurely because of lack of patient support and education programs
Most DME's are here is your machine, here is your mask, here is how you turnit on. We will call you in 30 days to get your compliance.

There needs to be a system set up like diabetes education, teaching you how to adjust the masks, and that monitoring your ahi should be like monitoring your blood glucose level. If the AHI gets above a certain numer, you should be calling the doctor for a consultation. Or I am going to go out on a limb here - a sliding scale where the person adjusts the pressure level in a controlled prescribed manner, like a diabetic adjusts his or her's insulin level based on a blood glucose level.

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by BlackSpinner » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:52 am

SimSportPlyr wrote: In my mind, success does not translate to 'is using the machine (as prescribed)'.

In my mind mind, success is, "use of the CPAP machine significantly increases sleep quality'".
Actually the sleep quality is also only one facet of using a cpap machine. Getting enough O2 while asleep is a big factor also. You may still feel like crap and sleepy while using your cpap machine but it is keeping your heart beating and feeding O2 to your brain and other organs as it is keeping apneas in check. So you can't even judge the effectiveness by how you feel. It could take up to a year to repair the damage done to the physical system and start to feel better.

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by SimSportPlyr » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:56 am

robysue, thanks for the reply.

I'm clearly not doing a great job of articulating what I meant by 'success', but I don't want to waste folks' time by attempting to clarify further.

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by robysue » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:33 pm

SimSportPlyr wrote:robysue, thanks for the reply.

I'm clearly not doing a great job of articulating what I meant by 'success', but I don't want to waste folks' time by attempting to clarify further.
Why not? We're a relatively friendly bunch and the most important definition of "success" for you is the one that is most meaningful to you.

You write:
In my mind mind, success is, "use of the CPAP machine significantly increases sleep quality'".
That's a decent beginning. But what does it mean to "significantly increase sleep quality'"? Consider the following things concerning "sleep quality":

1) As Pugsy points out CPAP fixes one problem with troubled sleep---namely sleep disordered breathing where the problem lies in an airway that is too prone to collapse. In other words CPAP fixes the problems caused by OSA and UARS. And it does a remarkably good job in preventing airway collapses and hence eliminates the respiratory effort related arousals and O2 desats. And doing that does result in an objective improvement of sleep quality. In other words, if OSA is your only sleep disorder, then with a proper titration and the appropriate patient education and follow-up, CPAP will make a significant difference in the objective quality of the paitent's sleep and it should (in time) make a difference in the subjective quality of the patient's sleep.

2) There are numerous other sleep disorders that can cause serious problems with both the objective and subjective quality of one's sleep. CPAP does not directly address these other sleep disorders, and if a particular person's sleep problems do not include sleep disordered breathing, a CPAP is unlikely to help. But many of these other disorders can occur in a person who also has OSA. In that case, all the CPAP can do is treat the OSA; it cannot and will not effectively treat the other sleep disorders. And while the CPAP will effectively eliminate the respiratory effort related arousals and O2 desats associated OSA, the objective and subjective sleep quality of the person will likely remain suboptimal until all of the sleep problems have been effectively treated. In this case CPAP will be a critical part of the overall treatment plan, but it should not be the whole of the treatment plan.

3) Adjusting to CPAP requires time, patience, and often some hard work on the patient's part because sleeping with a six foot hose attached to your nose is NOT natural. (But neither are the therapies prescribed for a great many other chronic medical conditions.) It would help if struggling newbies were routinely given the kind of in-depth education and follow-up that retrodave15 talks about in his post. All too often, however, newbies are simply given the machine (which is usually a brick), shown how to turn it on, and told to keep tightening the straps to eliminate leaks. This sets the patient up for failure: At the first sign of trouble, many a newbie decides that it's too much trouble to try to make this therapy work and they just abandon it.

4) For a not insignificant group of new PAPers, the subjective quality of their sleep goes down---perhaps even plummets precariously---shortly after starting CPAP therapy. I have direct first hand experience with this: My first three months were hellish, and the next six to eight months involved a long, slow slog to merely get back to feeling about as good as my pre-PAP self---one where the subjective quality of my sleep really was best describes as "fair"---as in "not really good, but not bad enough to be poor." But by the time I'd been I'd been a hosehead for 18 months I had to admit that I was (finally) sleeping better with CPAP than I had during the last two or three years prior to CPAP. (But there is still more room for improvement.) Now it could be argued that I should have just given up---and in fact, a PA in my first sleep doc's office even told me as much about 8 months after I started therapy---just before he fired me as a patient. Given my exceptionally long and difficult battle to adjust to PAP, I really do wish that there was some real interest on the part of the sleep medicine community in studying folks who don't start feeling better in the standard "2 weeks to a couple of months" timeframe the sleep docs think it should take to adjust.

5) Finally, like many other medical therapies for chronic diseases, the real point behind CPAP is not (just) to address the patient's obvious symptoms, but rather, the point of CPAP is to prevent further damage to the body and to minimize the physical effects of the disease on multiple systems throughout the body. OSA damages the body through the repeated apneic episodes each and every night and the damage is cumulative and leaves one at significantly higher risks for a whole host of nasty medical problems. The doctor's focus on using CPAP to prevent further damage damage to the OSA patient's body is what underlies the sentiment that "CPAP is almost 100% effective---if used as directed" and the subsequent focus of defining "CPAP success" in terms of "CPAP use". But it also leads to a major disconnect with a patient's definition of "CPAP success" which is usually defined in terms of "I am feeling and sleeping better NOW."

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by Headintheclouds » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:05 pm

The data from your link just means that 23-45% of all people who uses CPAP comply (i.e. 23-45% stick to using it properly all night, every night). Of those who do comply, it is 'successful' 100%. By success I take it to mean getting the apnea down to below AHI of 5. I myself certainly find that CPAP works. I've been on it for three weeks, complying full time, and the sleep quality is the best I've had for a long time.

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by SimSportPlyr » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:58 pm

Here's an update.

I called my CPAP supplier today and explained that I'm having difficulty getting comfortable with the machine.

The person I spoke with happens to be the boss of the tech who set me up with the machine.

He suggested that I try meditation; that the shortness of breath could be due to panic or anxiety related to the mask, even though I don't feel panic or anxiety.

He also suggested that I turn off C-Flex.

He said that I am prescribed for a set pressure, and that he can't authorize me to change the pressure setting.

He also said that the compliance rate of his patients is 80%.

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by Pugsy » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:12 pm

Wow, all we have to do is meditate and turn off exhale relief and we have an 80% chance of compliance.
Pardon me while I cough.

He is correct about changing the pressure though. He can't do that without a order from the doctor.
He could request the order from the doctor though to help you out.
Did you even try the higher starting pressure to see if it made things easier for you?
If you have not tried it...try it...you can change it back to original setting for nighttime if you wish. There is no law that says you can't change it to try it. The DME is bound by some laws...you aren't.
If you try it and it helps....call up your doctor and explain that you are suffocating at that pressure and get him to give the DME an order to change the starting pressure.
If it doesn't help...still call your doctor and explain that you are having a hard time and see what he has to offer.

Turning off CFlex is unlikely going to make much of a difference..hate you tell you that but using it really affects mostly the rhythm as there really isn't all that much of a reduction in the actual pressure delivered. You can of course try it to see if it helps. The actual reduction in pressure is based more on your own breathing flow. More forceful breathing gives a little more reduction but even at the highest reduction it isn't nearly as much as people think.
You can read about it here.
http://cflexplus.respironics.com/

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by Xney » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:18 pm

Listen to Pugsy for she is wise!

The DME cannot do those things, but I would talk to your doctor about it. A good ramp pressure/period and C-Flex being ON will make the treatment easier, IMO.

Meditation is a good thing, but that suggestion is asinine.

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by archangle » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:24 am

Unfortunately, "success" means "I got paid by the insurance" to a lot of DMEs. This often got translated to "the patient uses it 4 hours a night for 70% of the days in a month." Even a lot of doctors go along.

Slightly better doctors and DMEs included "AHI below 5."

What should it mean? AHI<5 is a good start.

Unfortunately, sometimes, "success" may mean "stopping the patient's downward slide in overall health due to apnea." While we want actual improvement, simply stopping the ongoing deterioration is a good thing.

Reversing the bad effects of apnea on the brain, heart, and body would be great. This happens to varying degrees in most people, but a lot of people never get back to 100%.

If you had a condition that was causing you to slowly go blind, a treatment that kept you from going completely blind would be a great thing, even if you don't get back to 20/20.

I think a lot of time, the medical experts get you to the "not getting worse" stage with a little bit of recovery. Getting to a higher level of recovery often requires a lot of extra involvement of the patient monitoring his own treatment and taking a more active role.

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by SimSportPlyr » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:37 am

The latest DME suggestions didn't help.

Thanks, folks, for helping to put this into perspective for me. I've certainly learned a lot from this forum.

I'm trying to contact my sleep MD to make an app't (rescheduler has been out of office, and there's no backup, apparently).

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by snuginarug » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:14 am

Just reading along and wanted to give some encouragement... you've definitely got the right attitude, which is half the battle.

I hope you get through to your doctor and get a pressure change speedily.

Good luck!

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by SimSportPlyr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:47 pm

Here's an update....

It took awhile to get an app't with my sleep MD, but during the visit the MD said that the titration portion of my sleep study was 'not good', in that there was significant apnea even with cpap on.

I'm not clear as to why I was prescribed a cpap after the 1st study (this summer) with a specific pressure setting after having a bad titration done....

So, the sleep MD prescribed a follow-up study, which happened last week.

I visit the sleep MD again next week to get the analysis of last week's study. Meanwhile......it may be worth mentioning that I slept during the study with a Mirage FX. For the first time with cpap, I did not feel 'lack of oxygen' and 'effort required to exhale'.

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by eeckel » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:13 pm

If you want to explore the success or effectiveness of CPAP you could check out some research studies. Go to PubMedhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed (Not sure how to make a hot link on this forum.) PubMed is a free database of scientific research related to health issues. It is run by the US National Institutes of Health. In other words we pay for it with our tax dollars. To see the most current research on CPAP do an advanced search with the key words CPAP and "effects".

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by Xney » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:15 pm

You definitely want to get copies of your sleep studies.

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Re: Effectiveness of CPAP?

Post by SimSportPlyr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:25 pm

Thanks, eekel, I'll check into those studies. Thanks.