OT - Statins and You

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Jay Aitchsee
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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:01 am

Thanks, very informative easy to understand overview of resistive starch. Also alludes to how changes in gut bacteria brought about by a low carb diet could tend to cause constipation. Something I intuitively knew, but hadn't really read about.

Cooled potato flour does sound interesting, too. Reminds me of something I just read about how potato salad might actually be a good thing - and I love potato salad!

I wonder about cooled oatmeal

EDIT: So, as it turns out, rolled oats are fairly high in restant starch. We may be able to have our oatmeal and eat it, too. More research on prep is required.

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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by DreamStalker » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:23 am

Jay Aitchsee wrote:
Thanks, very informative easy to understand overview of resistive starch. Also alludes to how changes in gut bacteria brought about by a low carb diet could tend to cause constipation. Something I intuitively knew, but hadn't really read about.

Cooled potato flour does sound interesting, too. Reminds me of something I just read about how potato salad might actually be a good thing - and I love potato salad!

I wonder about cooled oatmeal

EDIT: So, as it turns out, rolled oats are fairly high in restant starch. We may be able to have our oatmeal and eat it, too. More research on prep is required.
The glucose meter rarely lies. I have personally noticed that oatmeal does indeed cause a glucose/insulin spike .... but perhaps that is not an issue for some? Perhaps the goal is to use an insulin spike to pack nutrients into various tissues? Perhaps those types of people are into body building? Then timing the consumption of resistant starches (or any kind of starch or carbs for that matter) becomes most important.

As for buyrate, I let the Kerrygold cows make it for me in their gut so that I can add it as butter to my AM coffee and drown my PM steamed veggies and ribeye steak in it.

Seriously, if you are eating a low-carb diet with plenty of green veggies and certain fruits like avocados, grapefruit, lemons, and limes (also tomatoes, onions, leeks, and garlic in moderation) ... your gut bacteria will get plenty of soluble fiber to stay healthy.

Nonetheless, I found this somewhat more informative link - The Definitive Guide to Resistant Starch. I've not done a glucose test on cold potato salad -- but will try a post-prandial glucose test after my next scheduled HIT exercise workout ... and I'll make sure to take a complex probiotic prior.

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Jay Aitchsee
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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:06 am

Thanks, DS

Yes, Jan and I have been having a little conversation about oatmeal. The short of it is that on low carb, I need more fiber. I chose oatmeal. After I fell off the low carb diet over the holidays past, I got back on it, but noticed my TG didn't come down to the sub 100 level it had been a year ago. I suspected a carb, but the only real candidate was the oatmeal which I had continued.

So, prompted by another thread in which you contribute, I decided to do a little BG testing with Jan's guidance.

Here's the result: BG 1 and 2 hours after consuming breakfast of
  • oatmeal, walnuts, coconut oil, 1/2 and 1/2; 139, 107
    scrambled eggs, coconut oil, cheddar cheese, spinach, tomatoes; 107, 106
    (my fasting BG is about 106)
This is a spike I was no doubt enduring every day for about a year. I'm guessing it has played a part in keeping my TG elevated (about 140) and put an upward strain on by fasting BG level, though that hasn't changed much in several years - low carb or no.

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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by BlackSpinner » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:23 am

To get the RS from oat meal, you need to eat it raw, not flaked, not cooked. You grind the oats fine, add a little liquid and chew.

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Jay Aitchsee
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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:56 am

BlackSpinner wrote:To get the RS from oat meal, you need to eat it raw, not flaked, not cooked. You grind the oats fine, add a little liquid and chew.
Well, that would certainly be one way. I think I'll pass on that, thanks. But I have found some mention of cold soak prep and cook and cool, but who knows? I don't know that any method has actually been tested and, even if it had, would probably still require individual testing.

I like raw potatoes with a little salt and pepper - probably more than I would like raw oats.

I'm just looking to keep my little gut bacteria healthy and happy.

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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by Janknitz » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:47 pm

I'm a fan of the Outlander series of books (and the Showtime dramatization). The story takes place in Scotland in the 1700's and has many rich historical details. When out and about on the land without cooking facilities, the Scots would put a handful of raw oats (not the processed, rolled kind) in their mouths and chew it and swallow. Bet they were never constipated.
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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by DreamStalker » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:31 am

Jay Aitchsee wrote:Thanks, DS

Yes, Jan and I have been having a little conversation about oatmeal. The short of it is that on low carb, I need more fiber. I chose oatmeal. After I fell off the low carb diet over the holidays past, I got back on it, but noticed my TG didn't come down to the sub 100 level it had been a year ago. I suspected a carb, but the only real candidate was the oatmeal which I had continued.

So, prompted by another thread in which you contribute, I decided to do a little BG testing with Jan's guidance.

Here's the result: BG 1 and 2 hours after consuming breakfast of
  • oatmeal, walnuts, coconut oil, 1/2 and 1/2; 139, 107
    scrambled eggs, coconut oil, cheddar cheese, spinach, tomatoes; 107, 106
    (my fasting BG is about 106)
This is a spike I was no doubt enduring every day for about a year. I'm guessing it has played a part in keeping my TG elevated (about 140) and put an upward strain on by fasting BG level, though that hasn't changed much in several years - low carb or no.
Yes. As I recall from a few years ago, 1 cup of oatmeal (prepared plain w/ water only) would spike my BG into 140's in first post prandial half hour. The thing is that it would stay above 100 for over six hours. Exact same response for eating a medium size Fuji apple. My fasting BG at the time was in upper 90's

Eating carbs is ok for those who are glucose tolerant -- but more importantly, when consumed at the appropriate time ... within 30 minute, before or after, of doing intense physical work.

I am intrigued however of this resistant starch theory (of not raising glucose/insulin levels). I had heard of resistant starch a couple of years ago but disregarded it on the basis of my understanding that all starches were converted into glucose through digestion and the body cannot distinguish between glucose originating from sugar, grains, legumes, or potatoes. And I'm still skeptical -- but willing to experiment on myself cuz that's what I like to do. Next week, right before my BBS HIT workout, I'll try a cup of cold potato salad and monitor my glucose and ketone levels.

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Jay Aitchsee
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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:59 am

Re: DS above,

Yes, I'm interested in RS as well. I put some rolled oats in the fridge to soak, I've ordered some Bob's unmodified potato starch, and I think I'll buy a couple potatoes (I don't have any in the house). I plan on doing a few experiments, too.

As I mentioned above somewhere, oatmeal was originally added to my Whole Foods Diet (I try to eat very little processed foods) as a digestive aid and it worked for me. Even though I try to include a generous amount of vegetable in my diet, including some legumes (black beans and garbanzos), being on lower carb seems to slow things down. Now, only after about 3 days without oatmeal, I can tell things are slowing, even though I've added spinach and tomatoes to my egg breakfast to counter the fiber lost in giving up oatmeal. So it's possible I simply need more soluble fiber than most. BTW, I am (and have been) supplementing with psyllium fiber (Konsyl) which does, according to the label, contain about the same mix of soluble and insoluble fiber as oatmeal.

It should be noted here, since this is a thread about statins and indirectly about blood lipids, that blood lipid is what prompted me to start looking at the oatmeal. Over the winter, I fell off my diet for a couple months and a lipid panel revealed: TG=189, HDL=37, LDL=80. After getting back to eating "right" and more regular exercise for about 3 months, my lipids were: TG=110, HDL=44, LDL=57. Certainly a move in the right direction and not too bad, but I fully expected my TG (which I consider most important) to be down in the 70-80 range that it was last fall. So I started looking for what might be holding it up and the oatmeal became suspect - which led to the BG testing which revealed it was causing a pretty high spike.

So now the questions become, will eliminating oatmeal bring my TG down? And, if so, will it allow my LDL to rise (since oatmeal is one of those things thought to reduce LDL)? Now, I happen to believe high TG posses more of a threat than LDL and I'm willing to give up a little in LDL to get my TG down, but, as a person with CAD, I think it wise to keep an eye on both. Oh, and very importantly, will I be able to poop?

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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by DreamStalker » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:58 am

If it's pooping your concerned about ... I find that cabbage is good for that. Cabbage soup, cabbage slaw with vinegar base dressing, cabbage rolls, grilled cabbage, fried cabbage in coconut oil or ghee. Use your immagnination.

Also, I would highly recommend this supplement product to keep your bowels clean and moving the krap out in a timely manner ... Oxy-Powder. I've been using it for over 3 years as needed.

For trigs .... lower carbs intake (even lower for some folks more than others) and/or include some type of fasting. Get plenty of exercise without over-training yourself into a chronic inflammatory state. Try high intensity weight lifting once a week and Maffetone aerobic conditioning approach (maintain HR = 180 - age) for 30 to 60 minutes 5 days per week with one day of full rest the day after weight training.

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Jay Aitchsee
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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:40 am

DreamStalker wrote:If it's pooping...For trigs .... lower carbs intake
Yeah, I like cabbage and have it fairly often, fried, boiled, as slaw and, if I make it, in soup.

The Trigs and carbs relationship is what made me suspect the oatmeal. Other than oatmeal, I eat no refined carbs. What carbs I do eat come from above ground vegetables, legumes, nuts, and fruits in moderation. By far, the highest concentration of carbs eaten is in the oatmeal and beans (which I usually have cold with a vinegar and oil dressing). I haven't tested beans for BG impact. I will, but I'm guessing it's low. And now we're learning beans are good source of RS.

For exercise, I do a fair amount of yard work on my five acres, which here in Florida translates into using loppers, a walk behind brush mower, heavy duty line trimer, swinging a small chain saw, and some moderately heavy lifting for a few hours a week (I don't count the riding mower), but no structured weight training. Additionally, weather permitting, I ride 15 to 20 miles a day on my hybrid bike at a fairly good clip (about 15 mph), which does get my heart rate up for some of that hour or so that I ride, but I haven't measured it exactly. I'm pretty sure I exceed the 180-age criteria, though. For me, that would only be 106 (you can do the math ).

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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by Julie » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:45 am

What do you all think of the new research that says one solitary minute of intense working out daily can give you the same benefits of much longer, if not as intense work-outs?

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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by Janknitz » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:57 am

Jay Aitchsee wrote:Re: DS above,

Yes, I'm interested in RS as well. I put some rolled oats in the fridge to soak, I've ordered some Bob's unmodified potato starch, and I think I'll buy a couple potatoes (I don't have any in the house). I plan on doing a few experiments, too.

As I mentioned above somewhere, oatmeal was originally added to my Whole Foods Diet (I try to eat very little processed foods) as a digestive aid and it worked for me. Even though I try to include a generous amount of vegetable in my diet, including some legumes (black beans and garbanzos), being on lower carb seems to slow things down. Now, only after about 3 days without oatmeal, I can tell things are slowing, even though I've added spinach and tomatoes to my egg breakfast to counter the fiber lost in giving up oatmeal. So it's possible I simply need more soluble fiber than most. BTW, I am (and have been) supplementing with psyllium fiber (Konsyl) which does, according to the label, contain about the same mix of soluble and insoluble fiber as oatmeal.

It should be noted here, since this is a thread about statins and indirectly about blood lipids, that blood lipid is what prompted me to start looking at the oatmeal. Over the winter, I fell off my diet for a couple months and a lipid panel revealed: TG=189, HDL=37, LDL=80. After getting back to eating "right" and more regular exercise for about 3 months, my lipids were: TG=110, HDL=44, LDL=57. Certainly a move in the right direction and not too bad, but I fully expected my TG (which I consider most important) to be down in the 70-80 range that it was last fall. So I started looking for what might be holding it up and the oatmeal became suspect - which led to the BG testing which revealed it was causing a pretty high spike.

So now the questions become, will eliminating oatmeal bring my TG down? And, if so, will it allow my LDL to rise (since oatmeal is one of those things thought to reduce LDL)? Now, I happen to believe high TG posses more of a threat than LDL and I'm willing to give up a little in LDL to get my TG down, but, as a person with CAD, I think it wise to keep an eye on both. Oh, and very importantly, will I be able to poop?
Jay, keep in mind that LDL is about QUALITY not quantity. Small, dense LDL is harmful, and keeping LDL low by oatmeal is not beneficial. http://www.cureality.com/blog/post/2010 ... r-bad.html

Ideally you want to get trigs down, HDL up. That is an indicator of good quality LDL (large and "fluffy") regardless of number. It also means that inflammation and insulin resistance are low and THAT's what you want. LDL-C is pretty irrelevant unless you soar into the FH range.

One commentator said it's easy enough to get LDL-C down by replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated oils. But you aren't healthier--inflammation is higher and CV risk increases.

So do you want numbers that look good to the uneducated or true health???
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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by Janknitz » Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:00 pm

Julie wrote:What do you all think of the new research that says one solitary minute of intense working out daily can give you the same benefits of much longer, if not as intense work-outs?
One minute is a bit of a stretch. But you can get a LOT more benefit from very intense exercise like sprints or heavy lifting for 10 or 20 minutes a few times a week than hours of daily aerobic exercise. My husband is starting to train me on kettlebells.
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Don't Pay that Upcharge! http://tinyurl.com/2ck48rm

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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by DreamStalker » Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:16 pm

Jay Aitchsee wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:If it's pooping...For trigs .... lower carbs intake
Yeah, I like cabbage and have it fairly often, fried, boiled, as slaw and, if I make it, in soup.

The Trigs and carbs relationship is what made me suspect the oatmeal. Other than oatmeal, I eat no refined carbs. What carbs I do eat come from above ground vegetables, legumes, nuts, and fruits in moderation. By far, the highest concentration of carbs eaten is in the oatmeal and beans (which I usually have cold with a vinegar and oil dressing). I haven't tested beans for BG impact. I will, but I'm guessing it's low. And now we're learning beans are good source of RS.

For exercise, I do a fair amount of yard work on my five acres, which here in Florida translates into using loppers, a walk behind brush mower, heavy duty line trimer, swinging a small chain saw, and some moderately heavy lifting for a few hours a week (I don't count the riding mower), but no structured weight training. Additionally, weather permitting, I ride 15 to 20 miles a day on my hybrid bike at a fairly good clip (about 15 mph), which does get my heart rate up for some of that hour or so that I ride, but I haven't measured it exactly. I'm pretty sure I exceed the 180-age criteria, though. For me, that would only be 106 (you can do the math ).
If you don't have a chest-strap type HR monitor, a fairly good way to determine if you're in the Maffetone aerobic zone is to make sure that you're able to comfortably breathe only through your nose ... once the physical effort requires that you breathe through your mouth, you have exceeded your MAF heart rate and you need to slow down (stay right in that zone with maximum effort without using mouth to breathe). The actual amount of effort is different for each person but that is a good measure of the 180 - age heart rate target and I have found the nasal breathing limit to be fairly accurate.

The purpose of the HIT weight training is metabolic in addition to building/maintaining strength and muscle mass. HIT weight training is performed such that you completely fatigue muscles within a window of 60 to 90 seconds for each exercise. Less than 60 seconds does not provide the metabolic benefits while greater than 90 seconds does not provide enough effort. It has to do with Type II muscle fibers being forced into the lactate energy pathway to stimulate mitochondrial growth and biogenesis which in turn stimulate the production of enzymes and transport mechanisms like insulin receptors that help you become more tolerant of both insulin and glucose.

As for legumes and fruit, they too add to the daily accrued total of carb to glucose intake. While they may not "spike" ... it still comes down to the total integral area under the curve and that is what stimulates your liver to create the trigs. And the insulin resistance/lack of insulin receptors keeps them high. So, yes, You have plenty of hidden carbs and if you want to continue to eat them you have to do at the very least, intermittent fasting to give your body a chance to clear out the trigs and glucose. Also do your exercise in a fasted state.

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Re: OT - Statins and You

Post by DreamStalker » Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:24 pm

Janknitz wrote:
Julie wrote:What do you all think of the new research that says one solitary minute of intense working out daily can give you the same benefits of much longer, if not as intense work-outs?
One minute is a bit of a stretch. But you can get a LOT more benefit from very intense exercise like sprints or heavy lifting for 10 or 20 minutes a few times a week than hours of daily aerobic exercise. My husband is starting to train me on kettlebells.
Julie did not quite word it correctly. The muscle group needs to be exercised at a level of intensity to go to failure (ie. complete muscle fatigue) within a window of 60 to 90 seconds ... see my response to Jay above. Refer to Doug McGuff's Body by Science for biochemical and metabolic details as well as exercise approach.

Maffetone on the other hand is at the other end of the spectrum and strives for development of an aerobic foundation so that mitochondria use the aerobic path and stimulate similar metabolic pathways and transport mechanisms as BBS.

However BBS approach can only be done once every 7 to 10 days and requires muscle rest in between. So use BBS (which has minor negative effect on Maffetone approach when done just one day per week) only one day per week and use Maffetone (which does not interfere with BBS lactic anaerobic energy pathway development) 5 days per week for optimal results ... using day after BBS workout for complete rest.