OT: Why Do People Reject Science - Wrap Up

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
User avatar
mars
Posts: 1611
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:30 pm

OT: Why Do People Reject Science - Wrap Up

Post by mars » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:43 am

Hi Everybody
Why do some of us reject consensus on a whole range of scientific findings? As Professor Stephan Lewandowsky explains, it often comes down to the way we look at the world.


I saw the article at -

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ ... 366790.htm

and the large print version is below -

Why do people reject science?

by Dr Stephan Lewandowsky

Climate change protest

Worldview is crucial to understanding people's perception of the risk of complex issues such as climate change or vaccination.

What does Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity have to do with the human papillomavirus vaccine (HPV)?

What does acid rain have to do with the fact tobacco smoking causes lung cancer?

What does Reye's syndrome have in common with the CFCs that caused the hole in the ozone layer?

And what do all those issues have to do with the fact our climate is rapidly changing due to human greenhouse gas emissions?

The answer is that in all those cases, solid scientific evidence was met with vociferous opposition.

The historical evidence is overwhelming that some of that opposition has been organised by vested interests, often successfully delaying political and regulatory action that posed a perceived threat to corporate profits. The peer-reviewed literature has clearly identified the subterfuge, distortion and manufacture of doubt with which vested interests delayed the control of tobacco, CFCs and sulphur emissions.

Even relatively small threats to profits can cause vested interests to spring into obfuscatory action as is revealed by the case involving the makers of aspirin. Aspirin consumption by children with viral illnesses increases the risk of Reye's syndrome — fatal in one third of all patients — by 4,000 per cent.

When this evidence became known, the aspirin industry geared up a counter-campaign that delayed the introduction of simple warning labels on their products about the risk of Reye's syndrome by more than five years.

Before the warning labels became mandatory in the US, some 500 cases were reported annually; today, less than a handful of cases are reported each year.

The unnecessary death toll is readily obtained by multiplication.

The death toll from inaction on climate change, currently estimated by the World Health Organisation to be at 150,000 annually, is incomparably greater. Sadly, this is set to rise further in light of the organised manufacture of doubt by vested interests and their enablers in the media.

Merchants of doubt

Much has been written about those "merchants of doubt" and the mendacious media malpractice, which has created a chimerical public "debate" about issues were long ago resolved in the scientific literature.

However, although those powerful factors must not be underestimated, they are only part of the story and two other issues must be considered.

First, organised opposition to science can arise for reasons other than a perceived threat to corporate profits.

Second, forestalling political action requires more than just organised opposition to scientific evidence — that opposition must also fall on fertile ground in the public. No disinformation campaign can succeed without a "market" of consumers willing to buy into it. So what makes average citizens receptive to such a campaign?

To illustrate the first point, examination of the opposition to Einstein's theory of relativity reveals no obvious involvement of financial interests (which is not to minimise a political component involving nationalism and anti-semitism).

Intriguingly, a primary factor behind the opposition to Einstein within the scientific community arguably arose out of the thwarted career aspirations of physicists unable to cope with his revolutionary ideas.

Relativity threatened the "knowledge systems" of Einstein's opponents; dearly-held ideas such as the ephemeral "ether" presumed to occupy outer space or the invariance of time were destined for the dustbin if relativity proved to be correct — as of course it has. Those threats were sufficient for Einstein's scientific opponents to hold a rambunctious rally in Berlin's Philharmonic Hall during which he was denounced as a fraud.

Threat is the key word here. Threats to financial interests. Threats to one's career or to one's ability to keep pace with rapidly evolving revolutionary knowledge.

The notion of threat is key to understanding the rejection of evidence; whether it's by vested interests, by mediocre scientists fearful of becoming outdated, or by the public at large when confronted by inconvenient science.

The public can feel threatened by scientific issues at many levels and for many reasons.

Threat to worldview

Perhaps most relevant to present public debate are threats to people's "worldviews" — the very fundamental beliefs people hold about how the world should be organised.

Worldviews come in many shades and forms, but one prominent distinction — popularised by Professor Dan Kahan at Yale University - is between people whose worldview is "hierarchical-individualistic" and those whose worldview is "egalitarian-communitarian".

Hierarchical-individualistic people (HI from here on) believe rights, duties, goods, and offices should be distributed differentially and on the basis of people's own decisions without collective interference or assistance.

Egalitarian-communitarian (EC) people, by contrast, believe rights and goods should be distributed more equally and society should bear partial responsibility for securing the conditions of individual flourishing.

Like all binary classifications, the distinction between HI and EC worldviews lacks nuance and oversimplifies the complexity of human worldviews. Nonetheless, the distinction is extremely powerful and permits prediction of people's attitudes towards numerous scientific issues.

Perhaps not surprisingly, HI individuals are more likely to resist acceptance of climate science than EC individuals.

Why?

Because implicit in the message we get from climate science is the need to alter the way we currently do business. The spectre of regulation looms large, and so does the (imaginary) World Government or other interventions — such as multilateral agreements — that are anathema to the notion that individuals, not governments or societies, determine their own fate.

To manage that threat to an HI worldview, the fundamental laws of physics underlying climate science must be denied. The greenhouse properties of CO2 may have been known for 150 years, but those indubitable physical facts cannot compete with the need to protect free enterprise from the threats posed by socialism, communism, Nazism, Green "watermelons", a corrupt IPCC, Greenpeace, the all-powerful solar-energy lobby, to name but a few of the imaginary monsters and enemies that are awakened by the peer-reviewed evidence.

Lest one think it is only climate change that elicits such emotion and seemingly irrational behaviour, similar effects arise with issues such as mandatory HPV vaccinations.

Although at first glance one might think protecting young women from cervical cancer is a worthwhile goal, HPV vaccinations have turned into an emotive and highly politicised issue.

Why?

Because mandatory vaccinations give control to the state over parental decisions. Because the protection afforded by the vaccine may encourage young women to engage in sex. The resulting perceived threat to an HI worldview outweighs, for those individuals, the threat posed by cervical cancer itself.

Worldview is crucial to understanding people's risk perception. And it is not only HI individuals who respond to threats to their worldviews; for EC individuals there are mirror images involving nuclear power or nanotechnology.

It is revealing to analyse how far people are prepared to go when they are exposed to belief-threatening scientific evidence. In one study, people dismissed the scientific method itself when confronted with threatening information. People will rather declare that an issue cannot be resolved scientifically than accept evidence that's in opposition to their threatened beliefs.

In light of these data it's not surprising there can be yawning gaps between scientific knowledge and public acceptance of that knowledge. Those situations necessarily cause immense frustration to the scientific community because, after all, the scientists believe they know, whereas segments of the public seem to deny.

The historical record largely affirms that view. Relativity is true, CFCs did cause the ozone hole, HIV causes AIDS, tobacco is bad for you, and yes, greenhouse gas emissions do cause climate change.

Bridging the gap

Are there ways in which such gaps between scientific knowledge and public acceptance can be bridged?

Potentially, yes.

There is much evidence that the framing of information facilitates its acceptance when it no longer threatens people's worldview. HI individuals are more likely to accept climate science when the proposed solution involves nuclear power than when it involves emission cuts.

Similarly, the messenger matters. HPV vaccination is more likely to be found acceptable by HI individuals if arguments in its favour are presented by someone clearly identified as hierarchical-individualistic.

Conversely, acceptance of HPV vaccination collapses if the exact same information is presented by a bearded, latte-sipping academic with long hair and short pants. Arnold Schwarzenegger's strong support for action against climate change is thus of considerable import.

Finally, people are more likely to accept inconvenient evidence after their worldviews have been affirmed. In a nutshell, if people are given an opportunity to take pride in their embrace of free markets and unregulated enterprise, they are subsequently more likely to accept scientific evidence that would otherwise be deemed too threatening to their worldview.

Luckily — and somewhat ironically — science has some of the best tools needed to understand why people sometimes resist science.

This article is part of a series on Australian science published on The Conversation.

About the author.

Dr Stephan Lewandowsky is cognitive scientist at the University of Western Australia. His research examines people's memory and decision making, with particular emphasis on how people respond to corrections of misinformation.

(my bold print)
cheers

Mars
Last edited by mars on Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
for an an easier, cheaper and travel-easy sleep apnea treatment :D

http://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic/t7020 ... rapy-.html

User avatar
JeffL
Posts: 502
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:02 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by JeffL » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:28 am

Because in some cases, there is political pressure to falsify scientific "evidence" in order to achieve the goals of the pressuring political entity.

_________________
MachineMask

User avatar
JohnBFisher
Posts: 3821
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:33 am

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by JohnBFisher » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:46 am

JeffL wrote:Because in some cases, there is political pressure to falsify scientific "evidence" in order to achieve the goals of the pressuring political entity.
Sadly, this behavior is agnostic of political / religious beliefs. This occurs on the political left and right. It occurs with the religious liberal and conservative.

Essentially, for many people the situation is that if the scientific "fact" does not fit their world view, then they reject not just the fact, but the method used to achieve it.

And all too often in order to "prove" their beliefs, these individuals prove the old adage:
Figures don't lie, but liars figure!
Ideally, the conversation can be brought back to the facts and the methods used to establish those facts. However, if the beliefs (political or religious) are more important to the individual than "facts" then no amount of discussion will dissuade such beliefs.

_________________
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: User of xPAP therapy for over 20 yrs. Resmed & Respironics ASV units with EEP=9cm-14cm H2O; PSmin=4cm H2O; PSmax=15cm H2O; Max=25cm H2O
"I get up. I walk. I fall down. Meanwhile, I keep dancing” from Rabbi Hillel
"I wish to paint in such a manner as if I were photographing dreams." from Zdzisław Beksiński

User avatar
So Well
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Atherton

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by So Well » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:57 am

Hierarchical-individualistic people (HI from here on) believe rights, duties, goods, and offices should be distributed differentially and on the basis of people's own decisions without collective interference or assistance.

Egalitarian-communitarian (EC) people, by contrast, believe rights and goods should be distributed more equally and society should bear partial responsibility for securing the conditions of individual flourishing.
This is bullshit. There is no such way of breaking people down into these two categories and the good Professor Lewandowsky first admits this in the article,
Like all binary classifications, the distinction between HI and EC worldviews lacks nuance and oversimplifies the complexity of human worldviews.
but then goes on to fully use it as the basis of the article,
Nonetheless, the distinction is extremely powerful and permits prediction of people's attitudes towards numerous scientific issues.
Professor Lewandowsky has failed to learn the lesson of life that every individual is very complex and takes actions that are not predictable and often not easily explained.

As a person who believes that God gave every individual his own rights and as such it is a sin to transgress on others' rights, I fully reject Professor Lewandowsky's definition,
Hierarchical-individualistic people (HI from here on) believe rights, duties, goods, and offices should be distributed differentially and on the basis of people's own decisions without collective interference or assistance.
I believe rights are to be distributed equally among individuals; and goods and offices are to be distributed based on the output of the individual.

I also believe and practice that voluntary collective assistance is a wonderful undertaking. However it is a distant second place to individual assistance of our brothers and sisters in the approving eyes of God.

Professor Lewandowsky does not even mention voluntary collective assistance in the realm of possibilities. (I also have a suspicion that he does not practice voluntary collective assistance but instead believes in the force of government to take care of this.)

So the good professor's basic tenet fails the test of reality and the entire article is hereby rejected.
So Well
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and the government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson


User avatar
snuginarug
Posts: 676
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by snuginarug » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:25 am

So Well, I love reading what you write. You are rational and reasonable. I totally disagree with you more often than not, but I REALLY respect your intelligence and debate skills. So I am curious, HI/EC stuff aside, do you have an opinion on climate change? I just can't help my curiosity, I always want to know more. My debate skills are pretty much nil, but i have an insatiable thirst to always know more, about individuals, about groups, about ideas, about science, about, well, everything. And now I am terribly curious about your opinion on climate change. Or maybe that is an inappropriate question for this topic...?

PS Thanks Mars. This was a thought provoking article. Agree, disagree, still interesting.

_________________
Mask: Mirage™ SoftGel Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: CPAP mode, 12 pressure, SleepyHead software

User avatar
So Well
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Atherton

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by So Well » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:44 am

snuginarug wrote: do you have an opinion on climate change?
Yes, I do have an opinion -> If you stay snug in a rug, climate change should not be a problem for you.
So Well
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and the government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson


User avatar
tomjax
Posts: 1094
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:20 am
Contact:

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by tomjax » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:44 am

Many people are ideologically driven and follow their heroes.
They simply believe what they want to believe.

When a person truly believes that a flood covered the entire earth during a time man could build a huge boat and communicate with language, then there is no limit to what that person can be led to believe.

On the topic of global warming, the vast majority of opinions are by people simply not capable of making that judgment.
They follow Al Gore or some other persuasive person, not facts.

True science is not decided by majority opinions, only facts.
Many people do not differentiate in that they believe and that they know.
I could be wrong.

User avatar
snuginarug
Posts: 676
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by snuginarug » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:49 am

So Well wrote:
snuginarug wrote: do you have an opinion on climate change?
Yes, I do have an opinion -> If you stay snug in a rug, climate change should not be a problem for you.

Thank you!

_________________
Mask: Mirage™ SoftGel Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: CPAP mode, 12 pressure, SleepyHead software

User avatar
So Well
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Atherton

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by So Well » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:13 am

snuginarug wrote:
So Well wrote:
snuginarug wrote: do you have an opinion on climate change?
Yes, I do have an opinion -> If you stay snug in a rug, climate change should not be a problem for you.

Thank you!
But seriously, I do believe in climate change. What little I know about it, the climate has constantly been changing since the birth of the earth. Sometimes it was getting warmer, sometimes cooler. (And the worse times for man were in the cooler periods - The Ice Age and The Little Ice Age.)

I would say from personal observation it seems to be getting warmer, but there is a good chance that my judgement is impaired by the constant bombardment from all media of the idea that it is getting warmer.

Scientifically, I could not tell you whether the climate is getting warmer or not. I can tell you that man's activities using energy create heat (genius aren't I?). When I once lived within sight, from my upper bedroom windows, of the towers of a major downtown area, I always noticed they reported higher temps for downtown than in my suburb.

So, yes man is adding heat to the earth. Is this causing climate change? I think time will tell, but for now it is reasonable to assume it could be causing climate change.

What I think is very foolish is the idea that we are going to abandon our reliance on fossil fuels anytime in the next fifty years. And I think that governments that take repressive steps to move away from fossil fuels quickly will make life miserable for the majority of their citizens.

Now let me ask a question. Since there is a great concern about global warming, will someone please tell me the ideal global temperature? Don't we always ask our guests how they feel before we turn the HVAC up or down?

Maybe the earth is too hot these days for ideal human environment? Or maybe it is too cool?

What is the ideal global temperature for human beings?
Last edited by So Well on Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
So Well
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and the government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson


User avatar
chunkyfrog
Posts: 34452
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: Nebraska--I am sworn to keep the secret of this paradise.

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by chunkyfrog » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:16 am

Can't fix stupid. --Ron White.

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 For Her Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Airsense 10 Autoset for Her

User avatar
So Well
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Atherton

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by So Well » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:22 am

chunkyfrog wrote:Can't fix stupid. --Ron White.

Image
So Well
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and the government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson


User avatar
johnnygoodman
Posts: 784
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:13 pm
Contact:

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by johnnygoodman » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:40 pm

Howdy,

A question on the Climate Change science specifically...

How much CO2 is put in the earth's atmosphere with each Mt. St. Helen's magnitude eruption? How large is this number relative to a years worth of CO2 output from world wide industry?

Maybe there's an answer to this, but I can't find it. Any time I'm asked my position on this and the other party can't answer it, I find myself suspended in a state of climate change agnosticism, pun intended.

Johnny

User avatar
RocketGirl
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:48 pm

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by RocketGirl » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:52 pm

When you really look at the numbers, human activities put out every three to five days the same amount of carbon dioxide that volcanoes produce globally each year.

http://www.agu.org/news/press/pr_archiv ... 1-22.shtml

User avatar
snuginarug
Posts: 676
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by snuginarug » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:27 pm

I am not terribly good at reasoned arguments, but I do know how to find facts.

If you follow this link: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/featur ... cords.html you will find an article on the NASA website. It discusses many different variables, and the details of weather recording by different agencies. You can do what you like with THAT. My interest is in the table on the top of the right sidebar. You can download a detailed PDF that shows the weather records of 4 different recording agencies since 1880. No ideology, no arguments, no interpretations, just a chart with temperatures on it.
So Well wrote:I would say from personal observation it seems to be getting warmer, but there is a good chance that my judgement is impaired by the constant bombardment from all media of the idea that it is getting warmer.
Luckily, we do not have to rely on your subjective feelings, So Well. We have data!

Now, at the very bottom of this NASA article, we have the conclusion:
Invariably, a great deal of attention centers on each year’s ranking, but it is critical to focus on the decade-long trends that matter more, the GISS scientists emphasize. On that time scale, the three records are unequivocal: the last decade has been the warmest on record. “It’s not particularly important whether 2010, 2005, or 1998 was the hottest year on record,” said Hansen. "It is the underlying trend that is important."
So Well wrote:Now let me ask a question. Since there is a great concern about global warming, will someone please tell me the ideal global temperature? Don't we always ask our guests how they feel before we turn the HVAC up or down?


I have a different question. We all are familiar with Pyrex dishes... you can put them in the fridge and you can put them in the oven. Really cool invention. BUT if you impose upon it too drastic a change in temperature, it will crack. I think the relevant question is not what temperature is good for us, but what kind of drastic climate change can we and our environment endure. Because of course, our environment provides us with water, oxygen and vegetable matter which is necessary for animal life.

Now, on to your question, Johnny.
johnnygoodman wrote:How much CO2 is put in the earth's atmosphere with each Mt. St. Helen's magnitude eruption? How large is this number relative to a years worth of CO2 output from world wide industry?


This link takes us to a scientific journal article about volcanoes vs man CO2 emissions: http://www.agu.org/pubs/pdf/2011EO240001.pdf
The nearly 9-hour duration of both the Mount St. Helens and Pinatubo paroxysms gives average CO2 emission rates of about 0.001 and 0.006 gigaton per hour, respectively. Intriguingly, the anthropogenic CO2 emission rate of 35 gigatons per year— equivalent to 0.004 gigaton per hour—is similar. So, for a few hours during paroxysms, individual volcanoes may emit about as much or more CO2 than human activities. But volcanic paroxysms are ephemeral, while anthropogenic CO2 is emitted relentlessly from ubiquitous sources. On average, humanity’s ceaseless emissions release an
amount of CO2 comparable to the 0.01 gigaton of the 1980 Mount St. Helens paroxysm every 2.5 hours and the 0.05 gigaton of the 1991 Mount Pinatubo paroxysm every 12.5 hours. Every 2.7 days, they emit an amount comparable to the 0.26-gigaton preferred estimate for annual global volcanic CO2 emissions
Although this paragraph does not answer your exact question, it does give us some comparative figures. To wit, man made sources of CO2 produce 0.004 gigatons per hour, while at the height of its eruption period, Mt St Helen's produced 0.001 gigatons per hour. Please note, volcanoes do not emit this kind of CO2 continuously, all day long, 365 days a year. Usually, volcanic paroxysms last less than 24 hours.

If this article is too dry for you, RocketGirl provides a more accessible article.

To venture away from solid fact...
So Well wrote:And I think that governments that take repressive steps to move away from fossil fuels quickly will make life miserable for the majority of their citizens.
Exactly which repressive steps are you referring to? I would like to know exactly what you are talking about. Can you give examples?

_________________
Mask: Mirage™ SoftGel Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: CPAP mode, 12 pressure, SleepyHead software

User avatar
rested gal
Posts: 12883
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: OT: Why Do People Reject Science

Post by rested gal » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:06 pm

Back in this topic started by roster - Nov 4, 2008:
"Most Published Scientific Research Is Wrong"
viewtopic.php?p=310571#p310571


-SWS wrote a post:
viewtopic.php?p=310653#p310653
that contained the following interesting links:


Why Current Publication Practices May Distort Science
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/inf ... ed.0050201
Citation: Young NS, Ioannidis JPA, Al-Ubaydli O (2008) Why Current Publication Practices May Distort Science. PLoS Med 5(10): e201. doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.0050201
Published: October 7, 2008


Why Most Published Research Findings Are False
John P. A. Ioannidis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/
ResMed S9 VPAP Auto (ASV)
Humidifier: Integrated + Climate Control hose
Mask: Aeiomed Headrest (deconstructed, with homemade straps
3M painters tape over mouth
ALL LINKS by rested gal:
viewtopic.php?t=17435