Dreams -increasing and remembered?

[ElaineP]

I don't understand about dreams... forgive me if this is a dumb question.
When I had my first sleep study done, my Dr. said that my apnea wasn't that bad until I got in the REM level - then he described it as very, very, very bad. He said that I don't dream, basically because I didn't remain in REM long enough to do so without waking. I just found out from the respiratory therapist that I had 38 minutes of REM sleep, supposedly enough to determine the pressure I needed and whatever else.

Yet, from what I'm reading, dreaming is a bad thing? I did dream before using cpap (don't know if I do now or not, because I don't sleep well with it -yet.) Sometimes I would remember, sometimes not. And if you dream and don't remember the dreams, how do you know if you did dream?

I find it all confusing.

[rested gal]

Elaine, there aren't any dumb questions. The subject of dreams, REM, remembering or not remembering dreams, etc., is very confusing. I'm no expert on "dreams", but here's my take on it:

Dreaming is good. Dreaming is healthy. Most dreaming occurs during REM sleep. However, most apneas also happen during REM (Rapid Eye Movement sleep) when our throats are at their most relaxed (and collapsible!) state.

There's a big difference, imho, between A (which is good) and B (which is bad):

A. Good. Actually dreaming but not remembering dreaming. In other words, sleeping peacefully through REM, and not being awakened during a dream. I think that's the healthiest thing - dreaming, but not remembering dreaming. Or, at most, remembering only the last dream that might still be in progress just before we wake up in the morning. Perhaps remembering that last dream especiallyif we're jolted awake by an alarm clock!

You asked, "if you dream and don't remember the dreams, how do you know if you did dream?" A perfectly reasonable question! Well, at home there's no way for us to know. We'd have to be wired up to a machine during our sleep (like you were during your sleep study) which could produce data to show that we did get into REM, and that we stayed in REM long enough to have been capable of having a dream.

B. Bad. Not being able to get into REM, or stay in REM sleep long enough to dream sufficiently for good health. That's what the doctor said was happening to you. Apneas were interrupting your REM sleep. If apneas keep jolting a person out of REM, sleep can become so fragmented and broken that we either:

1) don't get sufficient "dream time" (REM). The brain keeps
waking us up just enough to breathe again. We might
not wake up enough to realize it though - just arousal
after arousal to "breathe", but never waking up enough
to know that's going on. Interrupting whatever sleep
stage we were in. Most often happening during REM.

or:

2) we do get into a dream, but an apnea wakes us
fully enough that we're able to remember,
"I was dreaming."

Some (perhaps most) of the dreams that you were remembering, Elaine, back before you got on cpap, were very likely "remembered" because an apnea waked you up out of REM sleep - at the time when the throat is most "collapsible". Waked you up fully enough that you were able to remember the dream.

However, most of the apneas probably were arousing you just barely enough to breathe again - without fully waking you up. You weren't aware the apneas were fragmenting your sleep because they weren't waking you up enough most of the time for you to "be awake". The arousals you were having but weren't aware of (under the surface every time your throat relaxed completely at the start of REM) might have been so constant that you were getting hardly any REM sleep at all - which is what the doctor noted in your sleep study.

While you're getting used to all the uncomfortable "stuff" associated with cpap treatment (mask, noise, perhaps not being able to turn over without the hose tugging at you, etc.) I wouldn't worry about whether you have dreams or not. While you're getting used to sleeping with a cpap machine and mask, you may still experience full "wake ups" during the night. Not because of apneas, but simply because of the strangeness of trying to sleep with so much equipment.

Some of these "getting-used-to-the-equipment wake-ups" may, by chance, happen to occur during REM - in which case you might remember a dream then. Or at the end of REM, making you fuzzily remember, "I was having a dream, but I can't remember anything about it." Or an equipment wake-up might happen during another stage of sleep when it's unlikely there was a dream to remember anyway. So, don't worry if you wake up during the night and there's no memory of having had any dreams at all. You probably simply woke up during a non-REM stage of sleep.

Now that you're on cpap treatment, I wouldn't worry about the catch-22 of "not knowing whether I'm dreaming if I can't remember them." Now that you are on cpap treatment, just relax and assume the machine is letting you get healthy REM. Healthy dream-time, with you sleeping peacefully right through the dreams... and most of the time not even remembering them.

[Georged]

I've found that when I have a "bad night", I fully wake up (sometime with sleep paralisis) and remember dreams.

That doesn't happen if I sleep mostly through and was infrequent before I was diagnosed.

My feeling is this seemed a bad thing.

[Guest]

Thanks so much, Rested Gal! Your answers always make so much sense. Surley much more than what my Dr. tells me. I am still having a hard time leaving the mask on all night, as I do keep waking up. I seem to be having more problems with sinuses and dryness from the dry air. I will probably pick up the humidifier tomorrow, and I'm hoping and praying it will help. Sometimes I feel I'm getting depressed about all of this and don't look forward to going to sleep at night. But you and and others on this forum are so helpful, it helps tremendously to know you're here. Many, many thanks!

[gailzee]

I was told by the sleep tech during my titration study that we go from 1-2 stages of so called light sleep into a delta sleep, then 1-2 cycles of REM. And that a good sleeper would have about three of the above types of sleep per night. I don't know if that is correct or not. Also that time may vary from seconds/mins./per each level of sleep we enter/depart. Also I was told by someone I know who went thru the sleep study, that she has sleep apnea stemming from central apnea and that her brave waves actually picked up a metabolic disorder requiring medication, and long term follow up with a pharmacologist. She is doing fine, but husband also notes that since she is medicated now, her sleep apnea's of 30-60 second (he timed them) are gone. So for her, she was in that 10%-tile that are harder to treat...does this sound accurate?

Since starting on CPAP a little over 2 months ago, I notice that I am having dreams every night and can often remember some of the content of the dreams when I wake in the morning. Sometimes I wake during the night and remember what I was dreaming.

So, the questions: does dreaming mean that I am accomplishing either more periods, or longer periods of REM sleep? (this would be a good thing)

and

does remembering the dreams mean that I am waking either during, or shortly after, REM sleep? (not such a good thing, I think)

Rested Gal!! Don't fail me... what do you know about dreaming relative to CPAP treatment.

Paul

[SleepyNoMore]

I'm so glad to hear that not dreaming probably means your CPAP therapy is working! I remembered dreams before CPAP and haven't remembered them since!!! So I guess I'm doing great!!!!!

[Cristolfo]

If you want to find out more about healthy dreaming, wy not look Dreamhawk. Especially look up sleep-paralysis.

[chunkyfrog]

This meshes perfectly with my experience.
Prior to treatment, I was awakened many times a night with vivid, bizarre, and disturbing dreams--always involving great physical effort.
After treatment, I hardly remember a thing. this effect was immediate--from the first night on.
Nothing like the threat of multiple nightmares to encourage compliance.

[portiemom]

Now I am suffiently and profoundly confused, I've been on straight cpap for 6 years now, and while my AHI stay around 1-2 I was not remembering my dreams, now I am auto treatment for 2 days and the nightmares just as I am falling asleep are many and I seem to be aware and I feel almost awake enough to stop the dream, but then drift off totally again right in to another nightmare, so can anyone tell me what may be happening?
Thanks

[teeroy]

Hi Paul

I know next to nothing about dreams, but here's my very unprofessional take on it:

As Bob said, if you remember a dream, you've waked up during REM. While dreaming is a healthy thing, I personally don't think that remembering dreams is a good thing. I think it's an indication that you were likely having an apnea or hypopnea strong enough to disturb your sleep. Obstructive events that are always more likely to happen during REM. The very events we want our machines to prevent.

To be able to commit the fact that you were dreaming to memory, whether you wake up with just a vague recollection of having had a dream, or some fuzzy details, or even a vivid colorful whole "story", I believe your REM sleep had to have been interrupted. Not good.

I think a lot of people who say, "I never dream" do, in fact dream - but just don't remember it. I also think that many people who say, "I dream a lot every night" are experiencing sleep disturbances that wake them enough to allow them to remember the dreams.

When people first get started on cpap treatment, it does seem that they report "dreaming more" or "dreaming more vividly" for the first days, weeks, or even months. My personal opinion is that cpap treatment itself can be so difficult to "sleep through" (masks, leaks, noises, hose tugging at us, pressure blowing, etc.) that the strangness of the treatment itself might be waking us more often in the early days of treatment - thus being more likely to have some of those wakeups happen during REM.

People who have been sleep deprived prior to cpap treatment do tend to experience "REM rebound" when they finally start getting good sleep again, but (and I think this is a big "but"....) I don't think it's a good sign if we are remembering dreams - whether it's REM rebound dreams or during normal amounts of REM. Either way, I think remembering a dream means sleep was disturbed enough to wake you up.

I rarely remember a dream with the exception of sometimes either vaguely or clearly remembering a "last dream" upon awakening to get up in the morning. And that's only if I have set the alarm clock, or some other noise like phone or a dog barking awakens me. If I awake on my own in the morning, I never remember having dreamed. I think that's really the way it should be. Just my opinion.

I did a google search and lead me to this post. it hits the nail on the head for me, when I use the cpap machine I rarely dream, or maybe I do but never remember them. when I'm out overnight somewhere, or camping without the cpap, I dream crazy vivid dreams and remember them with astonishing accuracy....for days. glad I'm not crazy, and the machine is actually doing what it is supposed to. thanks!

[Mad-a-moe]

I think vivid dreaming is one of the side effects of early CPAP users. See www. Webmd. com sleep-disorders sleep-apnea continuous-positive-airway-pressure-cpap-for-obstructive-sleep-apnea

[Julie]

Vivid + nightmarish pre-Cpap, normal and 'nice' afterward... even if this is an old thread.

[DreamStalker]

My experience was no dreams for many years prior to CPAP treatment (as might be expected with AHI over 100). Then first night of treatment I had awesome vivid dreams which continued for a few months into early treatment (it was those vivid dreams in the beginning that led to my forum username choice). However, once I dialed in my optimal pressure/mask combo and consistently got my AHI under 1.0 .... I hardly ever remember having any dreams.

[Sir NoddinOff]

An old thread but a good topic: Dreams occurring and remembering them are a good thing as far as I can tell. Naturally if and when they turn to nightmares, or even night terrors, then that's a different issue and should be addressed as such. Pre-CPAP I remember having dreams of drowning or being choked... obviously that was a sign of my apnea attacks - I'm happy to say those unpleasant dreams are long gone!

[Wulfman...]

I think vivid dreaming is one of the side effects of early CPAP users. See www. Webmd. com sleep-disorders sleep-apnea continuous-positive-airway-pressure-cpap-for-obstructive-sleep-apnea

Yeah, it's called "REM Rebound".

I just posted this link a couple of days ago. More comprehensive reading in it than just in the webmd site.

viewtopic.php?t=3524

Read all of it. There will be a test next week.


Den

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