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General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.

for all people who are still tired despite using their CPAP, poll please

I am using Nasal mask (any nasal air delivery whether nasal, pillow or prong)
139
59%
I am using full face mask
71
30%
I am using Hybrid (or any nasal and mouth air delivery like total face mask)
13
5%
I alternate between between nasal or mouth air delivery
12
5%
 
Total votes : 235

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DreamStalker
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby DreamStalker on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:38 am

SeaPappy wrote:Ignorance usually comes from not knowing what you are talking about :roll:

I don't care who you are, that's funny. :lol:


Hey.

I tried to be nice and inform him of basic physics concpets and terminology.

Then his panties got all waded up and he became an ass.
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
Thanks to Johnny and the fine members of CPAPTALK for helping me to discover my fountain of youth.
From 102 AHI to 0.4 AHI :)

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby JohnBFisher on Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:18 am

While, I am sorry about the tone of the post, I do want to point out the original poster essentially assumed mouth breathing versus nasal breathing impacts sleep:

... the bottom line, I need to check if aerodynamic of nasal air delivery versus mouth air delivery inside the throat, has any impact of those people who are still tired. knowing that it might be many factors involved, so the poll might help to shed light by showing the percentage of usage in this group. ...

Well, if you mouth breathe without a full face mask, it would. But trust me, sleep is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more complicated than the way you breathe. My neurologist jokingly notes that I am his science experiment to see how we can best regulate my sleep. I have the worst situation where a failing brain stem does not properly regulate my sleep. So, we tweak lots of things to make it work better. An ASV machine to help regulate my breathing. Medication to help me fall asleep. Medication help deal with poor sleep architecture.

No, it would be nice if it was that simple. But sleep is an incredibly complex process. ALL of the factors need to work together to help maintain normal sleep. Disruption of those can degrade sleep significantly, as most of us are all too aware.

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby tattooyu on Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:26 am

My residual sleepiness was from undiagnosed vitamin D insufficiency. Now that I'm on supplements, and trying to get a little more sun, I find that it is mostly gone.

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby DreamStalker on Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:35 am

JohnBFisher wrote:While, I am sorry about the tone of the post, I do want to point out the original poster essentially assumed mouth breathing versus nasal breathing impacts sleep:

... the bottom line, I need to check if aerodynamic of nasal air delivery versus mouth air delivery inside the throat, has any impact of those people who are still tired. knowing that it might be many factors involved, so the poll might help to shed light by showing the percentage of usage in this group. ...

Well, if you mouth breathe without a full face mask, it would. But trust me, sleep is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more complicated than the way you breathe. My neurologist jokingly notes that I am his science experiment to see how we can best regulate my sleep. I have the worst situation where a failing brain stem does not properly regulate my sleep. So, we tweak lots of things to make it work better. An ASV machine to help regulate my breathing. Medication to help me fall asleep. Medication help deal with poor sleep architecture.

No, it would be nice if it was that simple. But sleep is an incredibly complex process. ALL of the factors need to work together to help maintain normal sleep. Disruption of those can degrade sleep significantly, as most of us are all too aware.


Yes. As John noted, "sleep is an incredibly complex process" ... for some, even more so than others.

In addition to what John said, I would also point out that breathing through the mouth, as opposed to breathing through the nose will negatively impact airflow and thus OSA therapy. Mouth breathing (and excessive mouth leaking too) causes the throat tissues to loose excessive moisture causing the tissue to become sticky or tacky ... for those of you who remember running the 8-minute mile in high school PE (do they still have PE in school?), if you breath through your mouth then your throat dries out and you start having problems with your breathing. However, when your nose is stopped up, the mouth is the only orfice for staying alive ... whooda thunk it?

BTW - Loosing moisture from your throat tissue has little to do with aerodynamics and more to do with partial pressures and vapor saturations ... but we don't want to get into that do we?
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
Thanks to Johnny and the fine members of CPAPTALK for helping me to discover my fountain of youth.
From 102 AHI to 0.4 AHI :)

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby drubin007 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:39 am

JayC wrote:
I have sleep disordered breathing ------ I do not have obstructive sleep apnea for the most part unless I am sleeping on my back (rare) and my tongue falls back. OSA is under the sleep disordered breathing umbrella. My hypopnea numbers are higher, and I know that is not just due to the algorythm of my machine!!

I breathe too shallow and/or too slow when I sleep. I have no allergies, no asthma, no shortness of breath or any other lung or breathing issues when I am awake. I admit that I have a tendency to "hold my breath" when discussing some emotions.

Our tiredness can some from other sleep disruptors besides our breathing.....and I don't expect that CPAP will address those sources of tiredness. I have 2 types of insomnia from decades of unconciously avoiding sleep because I felt crappy whenever I awoke......mostly I expect from oxygen desaturation. So while CPAP addresses the desats, it doesn't address the 30 year habit of pushing myself beyond tired before I sucumb to sleep.

I recently started light therapy to address some of my remaining symptoms. I am so far finding an increase in hours slept, and better sleep if I go to bed at the first signs of tiredness rather than pushing through to a second wind...... and of course use my CPAP when I am sleeping!

For me, CPAP is a god-send. It gives me some sleep and improving clarity and energy most days so I can puzzle through addressing remaining symptoms and getting the best improvement and functioning possible.

All the best to you....

J


I apoligize in advance if we are hijacking a pretty much otherwise worthless thread full of drama and banter. If we should take this to private messages thats fine too, however for now I will post here for everyone elses benefit.

I have to ask you J, how the cpap does benefit you if you are not sleeping on your back? Really it is just more out of curiosity as it seems you have condintions far worse then me.

I do have allergies and there is simply no escaping them. Did not even know I had them until a little over a year ago, and tried to remedy them using encasements on all mattresses and pillows, plugging in the ionic breezes I bought a few of from sharper image. Dog hair and dust I just cannot escape. My allergies only come out at night in my room, and I am doing immunotherapy for them (allegy shots twice a week, down to once a week now). been doing them for a year now, with no noticable improvement. the cpap (with heated humidifier) clears my nostrils and I breathe fine that way.

So what other types of therapy are you doing to address your issues? As I mentioned in my first post, I do cpap because I know the long term effects of osa and do not want to be a burden on my family, however truthfully do not think it is the source of my issues.
My sleep studies did show a difference with cpap and that was far less drastic then Surgery, so I embraced it and have remained faithful. Yet there is times I catch myself holding my breath, and cannot help but wonder if it is neurological as opposed to a fat tongue.

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby sepool on Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:36 pm

The misunderstanding of the physics of xPAP can be frustrating. Indeed, the xPAP merely provides pressure - our breathing provides the actual flow in and out of our lungs. It is our muscular efforts that provide the very small pressure difference needed for our respiration. In between breaths, there is NO AIR FLOW in or out of our lungs! Just the increased pressure (above the ambient) from the CPAP. The irony of the first argument in the thread is that during an obstructive event, there is no air flow. Where would the air be going, anyway?

I have an aunt who was using CPAP - she thought blowing a fan at her face would do the same thing and was more comfortable - she ended up having a stroke in her sleep.

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby williamco on Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:34 pm

there is no aerodynamic when there is an obstruction- air is moving in different direction only if there is no obstruction.
we are talking about air direction before obstruction happens, if direction of air has any impact on preventing obstruction from happening or decreasing the incidence

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby sepool on Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:40 pm

I would think that with the very small amount of air flow in and out of the lungs, the only pressure difference would be in our ribcage during breathing in or out - the rest of the passages would be at the xPAP pressure, regardless of where it goes in (nasal or mouth). There just isn't enough flow to deviate from the laminar.

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby DreamStalker on Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:45 pm

Good luck trying to get him to understand sepool.
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
Thanks to Johnny and the fine members of CPAPTALK for helping me to discover my fountain of youth.
From 102 AHI to 0.4 AHI :)

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby jdm2857 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:04 pm

Without knowledge of the distribution of mask types among all CPAP users, the poll data isn't very useful.

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby WearyOne on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:08 pm

tattooyu wrote:My residual sleepiness was from undiagnosed vitamin D insufficiency. Now that I'm on supplements, and trying to get a little more sun, I find that it is mostly gone.


That's good to hear, that it's helped you...and that it also might help me! I have been suffering with low Vit D for years and can't seem to get it to stay where it should be! Don't have the money right now for a Vit D test or prescription supplements, but I am taking OTC ones, when I remember! Your post will spur me on to make a better effort to remember. I'll try to get out in the sun more, too, but right now, at 105 degrees, I think I'll wait a while!

Oh, on the topic of the tongue blocking things, if your AHI is okay, whether the tongue is blocking things or it's something else, wouldn't that indicate that it's being taken care of? (I don't understand what half of these posts are talking about, so my question may be stupid.)

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby williamco on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:11 pm

I know there are a lot of variables in this pool,

1-what percentage of people using nasal versus what percentage using full face
2- most of people who have successful and stabilized treatment are not even around in the forum for long, why would they?so this is not really a random pool
3-unsuccessful CPAP therapy might have plenty of reasons

this is why I said at the opening post , there are a lot of variables but we can't control it all, so this is just a remote shot

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby carbonman on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:41 pm

It's very sad that JNK is not here to
create a poll to set this poll straight.
"If your therapy is improving your health but you're not doing anything
to see or feel those changes, you'll never know what you're capable of."
I said that.

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby dsm on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:43 pm

I too am sorry to see the tone of this discussion go downhill but am pleased to see others have lifted it up again :)

Re breathing -

One other factor I don't think has been mentioned yet is that the lungs use force to suck air in. That creates a vacuum that is satisfied by airflow in. UARS is a good example of how types of flow obstructions can prevent a good airflow in and can stress the heart & lungs as well as add the usual SDB complications.

It seems logical that the sucking of the lungs may draw the tongue down for some people. Add the cpap pressure coming in through the mouth (for mouth breathers) and one would imagine both forces would tend to contribute to the tongue 'plugging' the throat. I was wondering if the original poster was thinking of that ?

Just a few thoughts re the dynamics

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby Hope1952 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:32 pm

drubin007 wrote:
JayC wrote:
I have sleep disordered breathing ------ I do not have obstructive sleep apnea for the most part unless I am sleeping on my back (rare) and my tongue falls back. OSA is under the sleep disordered breathing umbrella. My hypopnea numbers are higher, and I know that is not just due to the algorythm of my machine!!

I breathe too shallow and/or too slow when I sleep. I have no allergies, no asthma, no shortness of breath or any other lung or breathing issues when I am awake. I admit that I have a tendency to "hold my breath" when discussing some emotions.

J

I do have allergies and there is simply no escaping them. Did not even know I had them until a little over a year ago, and tried to remedy them using encasements on all mattresses and pillows, plugging in the ionic breezes I bought a few of from sharper image. Dog hair and dust I just cannot escape. My allergies only come out at night in my room, and I am doing immunotherapy for them (allegy shots twice a week, down to once a week now). been doing them for a year now, with no noticable improvement. the cpap (with heated humidifier) clears my nostrils and I breathe fine that way.

So what other types of therapy are you doing to address your issues? As I mentioned in my first post, I do cpap because I know the long term effects of osa and do not want to be a burden on my family, however truthfully do not think it is the source of my issues.
My sleep studies did show a difference with cpap and that was far less drastic then Surgery, so I embraced it and have remained faithful. Yet there is times I catch myself holding my breath, and cannot help but wonder if it is neurological as opposed to a fat tongue.


Thanks to you two for mentioning this and for the post about still feeling tired. I am more tired than I ever was before cpap. I am exhausted. My sleep study showed only hypopneas; no OAs, so I do wonder if cpap is appropriate treatment for me. I'm sorry to read the allergy shots aren't helping. That is the most recent issue I'm working on. I think I stop breathing because I'm a nose-breather and my nose is stopped up. The ff with nasal pillows does help that sometimes, but most of the time it doesn't help enough. I think it has been a long-standing habit for me not to breathe normally. Perhaps cpap would help that?

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