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General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.

for all people who are still tired despite using their CPAP, poll please

I am using Nasal mask (any nasal air delivery whether nasal, pillow or prong)
139
59%
I am using full face mask
71
30%
I am using Hybrid (or any nasal and mouth air delivery like total face mask)
13
5%
I alternate between between nasal or mouth air delivery
12
5%
 
Total votes : 235

williamco
 
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for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby williamco on Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:49 am

OSA can be caused by one of three reasons: 1- soft palate 2- oropharynx (throat) 3- tongue

I am having an idea that CPAP might not be able to fully correct obstruction that is caused by tongue, for these reasons:

1-soft palate and throat are thin easy to push tissues by high pressure, the base of the tongue is the thickest component in the throat

2- the aerodynamic of pressured air going down in the throat, might push soft palate away (backward in mouth air delivery, or forward in nasal air delivery) and push throat backward in either path of air delivery , but tongue is the only component that relaxes downward during sleep so it needs to be pushed upward, no pressured air going down the throat can push the tongue upward in opposite direction of the air pathway, this is against physics, however CPAP can only work in this case by creating more space in the throat soft tissue by the pressured air but no direct impact on the tongue

However only mouth air delivery can push the back of the throat a bit more, because air is going in straight direction at back of the throat, opening more space for the relaxed tongue.
this aerodynamic can't happen with nasal air delivery as the air going down not hitting the back of the throat in a straight head on direction, yes transmitting pressure all around but in not as much as direct hit

Further more air going down (nasal delivery) might push the tongue down even further, while air going backward (mouth delivery) will not be in line of the tongue relaxation path, and will not push it further down, as air is bouncing off the back of the throat into trachea, might even push tongue forward.

the bottom line, I need to check if aerodynamic of nasal air delivery versus mouth air delivery inside the throat, has any impact of those people who are still tired. knowing that it might be many factors involved, so the poll might help to shed light by showing the percentage of usage in this group.

Thanks for participation

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Additional Comments: Pressure at 12 cmh2o

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DreamStalker
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby DreamStalker on Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:56 am

Sorry, but your hypothesis is incorrect.

Air pressure does not push air down the throat.

Air pressure pushes tissue out normal to cavity walls ... think of filling a balloon.

You may need to retake your college physics courses.
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
Thanks to Johnny and the fine members of CPAPTALK for helping me to discover my fountain of youth.
From 102 AHI to 0.4 AHI :)

williamco
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby williamco on Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:58 am

Thank you for your comment

but for others, that if no air movement inside the throat, then all parts have same pressure. but once you start to inhale there is a an air current with a force, the direction of the air current will have a difference in pressure on different parts of throat based on directions.

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Mask: Mirage Activa™ LT Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: M Series Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Pressure at 12 cmh2o
Last edited by williamco on Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

drubin007
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby drubin007 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:11 am

I may be the only one that thinks this but I do not think I even have OSA...
Sure the sleep studies reflect that I do and the cpap did show positive results
which is why I have not missed a single night in over a year... I have gone from
a cpap to an apap, and pretty much monitor my own progress, although I have not downloaded my
data in a while now. Life seems to get in the way sometimes and time constraints.
Truth of the matter, I feel the same now as I did before I started with cpap therapy.
I have mentioned this to my doctor and the next step was more drastic (heavy drugs?)
so I now just say I am doing better and life is grand.
I never had the bad symtoms of so many others on here, just tired.
What I suspect, is that I hold my breath for short periods (subconsciously).
I have caught myself doing this during waking hours as well as in light levels of sleep.
That being said, blowing air up my nasal passages is not going to open my airway.
I do not mean to do it, and only seldom catch myself doing it, but I think thats my issue.
I am loyal to my F&P machine, because I know the long term results of OSA
and if I am wrong do not want to be a burnen on my family in later years...
The only noticable difference since being on cpap for me is I do not snore.

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby DreamStalker on Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:14 am

williamco wrote:Thank you for your comment

but for others, that if no air movement inside the throat, then all parts have same pressure. but once you start to inhale there is a an air current with a force, the direction of the air current will have a difference in pressure on different parts of throat based on directions.



No problemo.

Here is a Wiki link to introduction of pressure. A fairly simple explanation though a calculus/differential equations based physics course would get you into the real nitty gritty details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure

As you may note, pressure is basically a force per unit area directed normal (perpendicular) to the area surface. The airway cavity of your respiratory system is "pressurized" by the CPAP machine which activates a force directed outwards against the inner surface of your respiratory cavity tissue.

In other words, there is no force pushing the tongue down the throat but rather the force stents (or enlarges) the throat opening ... like inflating a weird shaped ballon that looks like the inside of your throat (or entire respiratory cavity).
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
Thanks to Johnny and the fine members of CPAPTALK for helping me to discover my fountain of youth.
From 102 AHI to 0.4 AHI :)

williamco
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby williamco on Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:17 am

but for others who have some etiquette in conversations, pressure is not equal if there is a movement, pressure is only equal if the air is still. current of air will have force and create different pressure based on direction

if no air movement inside the throat, then all parts have same pressure. but once you start to inhale there is a an air current with a force, (this is the aerodynamic which is the pressure created by air movements, that is different than pressure created by air only )
there is pressure of air, and pressure of air current
the direction of the air current will have a difference in pressure on different parts of throat based on directions

Ignorance usually comes with rudeness

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby DreamStalker on Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:50 am

williamco wrote:but for others who have some etiquette in conversations, pressure is not equal if there is a movement, pressure is only equal if the air is still. current of air will have force and create different pressure based on direction

if no air movement inside the throat, then all parts have same pressure. but once you start to inhale there is a an air current with a force, (this is the aerodynamic which is the pressure created by air movements, that is different than pressure created by air only )
there is pressure of air, and pressure of air current
the direction of the air current will have a difference in pressure on different parts of throat based on directions

Ignorance usually comes with arrogance


You are confusing air pressure with air flow. Dynamics is the study of forces on moving objects thus aerodynamics refers to the forces and motion of moving air .... it is NOT pressure. Areodynamics of air flow is a branch of fluid mechanics ... it is NOT pressure!

Pressure does NOT equal flow nor does it equal aerodynamics.

Pressure is a force per unit area. Flow is a volumetric rate. Aerodynamics is the complex motion of air as it interacts with moving objects like planes, trains, and automobiles.

Ignorance usually comes from not knowing what you are talking about :roll:

Oh. And your hypothesis is still wrong! ... as arrogant as it may be
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
Thanks to Johnny and the fine members of CPAPTALK for helping me to discover my fountain of youth.
From 102 AHI to 0.4 AHI :)

williamco
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby williamco on Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:59 am

5422 posts in 4 years, more than 4 posts a day, antagonising people not only in this post but in other posts. do you have a life?

if this topic is wrong for your brilliant IQ, go on to your life or other posts that meets your level of IQ
Bye

for the rest, some wrote
aerodynamics refers to the forces and motion of moving air .... it is NOT pressure.

this is exactly what I am talking about what we have with CPAP is not only a static pressure per square inch, but also forces of moving air in the throat (aerodynamics)

while trying to dispute, he proved it

_________________
Mask: Mirage Activa™ LT Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: M Series Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Pressure at 12 cmh2o
Last edited by williamco on Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby DreamStalker on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:12 am

williamco wrote:5422 posts in 4 years, more than 4 posts a day, antagonising people not only in this post but in other posts. do you have a life?

if this topic is wrong for your brilliant IQ, go on to your life or other posts that meets your level of IQ
Bye


NO. It is more than 5422 posts and not quite 4 years yet and life is great ... for me anyway.

Never have checked my IQ but I suspect it is fairly normal, certainly not brilliant.

williamco wrote:for the rest, some moron wrote
aerodynamics refers to the forces and motion of moving air .... it is NOT pressure.

what is pressure but a force?


If morons could read, they would know that pressure is a "force per unit area" and NOT a force.

Why?

Because force is mass times acceleration (Google Newton's laws of physics) making pressure. a mass times accerleration divided by a unit of surface area.

You need to take a basic course in high school algebra too ... do they still teach that in school?

What is the world comming to?
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
Thanks to Johnny and the fine members of CPAPTALK for helping me to discover my fountain of youth.
From 102 AHI to 0.4 AHI :)

williamco
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby williamco on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:13 am

Bye

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby DreamStalker on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:13 am

williamco wrote:this is exactly what I am talking about what we have with CPAP is not only a static pressure per square inch, but also forces of moving air in the throat (aerodynamics)

while trying to dispute, he proved it


You have issues not only with your hypothesis but also with a fundamental understanding of the most basic concepts of phyiscs and high school math.

Whatever dumbass!
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
Thanks to Johnny and the fine members of CPAPTALK for helping me to discover my fountain of youth.
From 102 AHI to 0.4 AHI :)

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SeaPappy
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby SeaPappy on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:21 am

Ignorance usually comes from not knowing what you are talking about :roll:

I don't care who you are, that's funny. :lol:
When I woke up this morning my girlfriend asked me, 'Did you sleep good?' I said 'No, I made a few mistakes.'
Steven Wright

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Thomas F.
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby Thomas F. on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:23 am

Good, but hostile, discussion.

There have been many postings about avoiding suppine (back) sleeping. For many people, me included, back sleeping requires higher pressure than normally needed when sleeping on side or stomach. This is logical -- and proven by many that have the data --- because the tongue has a higher probability of blocking the airway when back sleeping. Maybe even a low,fleshy pallet gets worse when on your back?? To create breathing space around the tongue takes more pressure. My guess is both the FFM and nasal mask approach can get the job done if the pressure is high enough. For me I choose to force myself to side/stomach sleep and go with less pressure get the many other benefits of lower pressure as well.

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Had UPPP and Hyoid Advancement Surgery on 10/29/2010.

JayC
 
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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby JayC on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:25 am

drubin007 wrote:I may be the only one that thinks this but I do not think I even have OSA...
Sure the sleep studies reflect that I do and the cpap did show positive results
which is why I have not missed a single night in over a year... I have gone from
a cpap to an apap, and pretty much monitor my own progress, although I have not downloaded my
data in a while now. Life seems to get in the way sometimes and time constraints.
Truth of the matter, I feel the same now as I did before I started with cpap therapy.
I have mentioned this to my doctor and the next step was more drastic (heavy drugs?)
so I now just say I am doing better and life is grand.
I never had the bad symtoms of so many others on here, just tired.
What I suspect, is that I hold my breath for short periods (subconsciously).
I have caught myself doing this during waking hours as well as in light levels of sleep.
That being said, blowing air up my nasal passages is not going to open my airway.
I do not mean to do it, and only seldom catch myself doing it, but I think thats my issue.
I am loyal to my F&P machine, because I know the long term results of OSA
and if I am wrong do not want to be a burnen on my family in later years...
The only noticable difference since being on cpap for me is I do not snore.



I have sleep disordered breathing ------ I do not have obstructive sleep apnea for the most part unless I am sleeping on my back (rare) and my tongue falls back. OSA is under the sleep disordered breathing umbrella. My hypopnea numbers are higher, and I know that is not just due to the algorythm of my machine!!

I breathe too shallow and/or too slow when I sleep. I have no allergies, no asthma, no shortness of breath or any other lung or breathing issues when I am awake. I admit that I have a tendency to "hold my breath" when discussing some emotions.

Our tiredness can some from other sleep disruptors besides our breathing.....and I don't expect that CPAP will address those sources of tiredness. I have 2 types of insomnia from decades of unconciously avoiding sleep because I felt crappy whenever I awoke......mostly I expect from oxygen desaturation. So while CPAP addresses the desats, it doesn't address the 30 year habit of pushing myself beyond tired before I sucumb to sleep.

I recently started light therapy to address some of my remaining symptoms. I am so far finding an increase in hours slept, and better sleep if I go to bed at the first signs of tiredness rather than pushing through to a second wind...... and of course use my CPAP when I am sleeping!

For me, CPAP is a god-send. It gives me some sleep and improving clarity and energy most days so I can puzzle through addressing remaining symptoms and getting the best improvement and functioning possible.

All the best to you....

J

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Re: for all people who are still tired despite using CPAP, poll

Postby DreamStalker on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:30 am

Thomas F. wrote:Good, but hostile, discussion.

There have been many postings about avoiding suppine (back) sleeping. For many people, me included, back sleeping requires higher pressure than normally needed when sleeping on side or stomach. This is logical -- and proven by many that have the data --- because the tongue has a higher probability of blocking the airway when back sleeping. Maybe even a low,fleshy pallet gets worse when on your back?? To create breathing space around the tongue takes more pressure. My guess is both the FFM and nasal mask approach can get the job done if the pressure is high enough. For me I choose to force myself to side/stomach sleep and go with less pressure get the many other benefits of lower pressure as well.



You are absolutely correct. I do the same as you and try and sleep on my side or stomach.

I would add one more note. Maintaining adequate pressure requires control of air flow leaks. There is a minimum amount of leak associated with expelling CO2 and the CPAP machines are designed to adjust airflow for this as well as minor leakage from seals (regardless of FFM or nasal mask type). However, exceedingly high air flow leakage prevents the machine from producing an adequate pressure to stent the airway open.
Thanks Snoredog, GoofyUT, rested gal, GoofProof, Wulfman, NightHawkeye, snoregirl and all of the others.
Thanks to Johnny and the fine members of CPAPTALK for helping me to discover my fountain of youth.
From 102 AHI to 0.4 AHI :)

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