Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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StillAnotherGuest
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:19 pm

another_guest wrote:
-SWS wrote: It might help our newcomers if I explained that Deltadave, SAG, Muffy, Notmuffy, and sleepydave are all the same person with a great albeit off-beat sense of humor...

and I ain't him
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy A_G!

WB.

Been a long time.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

another_guest
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by another_guest » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:24 pm

StillAnotherGuest wrote:
another_guest wrote:
-SWS wrote: It might help our newcomers if I explained that Deltadave, SAG, Muffy, Notmuffy, and sleepydave are all the same person with a great albeit off-beat sense of humor...

and I ain't him
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy A_G!

WB.

Been a long time.

SAG
ty

now will you stay out of trouble so I can go back into hiding? last time I made an appearance was with all the snoredog post removal and mikesus accusing me of being you

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StillAnotherGuest
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:38 pm

Ah, those were the good ol' days....

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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dsm
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by dsm » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:00 pm

-SWS wrote:
dsm wrote:Weinmann appeard to use conventional fot bursts.
As it turns out the Weinmann technique really did match that more sophisticated single-frequency FOT method in the PDF document I linked several posts above:
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/pr ... tNr=224278
Recording of the impedance signal and application of the nasal CPAP pressure were carried out with the Somnosmart® device manufactured by Weinmann, Hamburg, Germany.

Figure 1 shows a diagram of the system. The patient breathes via a standard nasal mask (Respironics, Sullivan, Weinmann; No. 1 in fig. 1) which is connected in parallel to a CPAP generator (2), a pump for generating an oscillating flow at a frequency of 20 Hz (3) and a sensor to record the mask pressure (4). The pressure signal is passed on to the processor (central processing unit, CPU) via an analog-digital converter (5). The CPU (6) calculates the impedance from the pressure signal and regulates the CPAP generator and oscillation pump. Via a digital-analog converter (7) the calculated impedance, called 'FOT', can be presented in analog form. The pressure given by the CPU is called 'control pressure', the pressure taken from the mask and given besides the APAPFOT unit to the polysomnograph is called 'CPAP'...

Impedance (Zrs) designates a complex resistance: in addition to the real component (resistance, R) it also includes an 'imaginary' component (reactance, X) [11, 12, 13, 14]. Recording of the impedance signal and application of the nasal CPAP pressure were carried out with the Somnosmart® device manufactured by Weinmann, Hamburg, Germany.
Unlike the basic Respironics FOT method in the marketing literature above, the Weinmann FOT technique actually determines complex airway impedance. At least my memory about Weinmann's FOT is not completely shot.

And at least we know what Respironics is up to with their more basic FOT as well.

SWS

In working through this Weinmann info in your post, it actually appears to show a lab test using a seperate FOT signal generator & an isolated detector both in conjuction with a SOMMNOsmart bilevel.. So your early thinking re the Wienmann technique (as employed in the SOMMNOsmart) was probably right. I don't think there is a way the above technique could be employed in a single machine.

DSM
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)

-SWS
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by -SWS » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:18 pm

dsm wrote:In working through this Weinmann info in your post, it actually appears to show a lab test using a seperate FOT signal generator & an isolated detector both in conjuction with a SOMMNOsmart bilevel.
DSM, please take another look at that study's title and especially the study's objective. That study proposes to evaluate what they term "APAPfot" (a self-adjusting CPAP that is algorithmically based on FOT-determined airway impedance). Specifically, the study evaluates the Weinmann SomnoSmart FOT-based APAP model while allowing for multiple brands of masks (Respironics, Sullivan, Weinmann).

Anyway, Figure 1 shows a diagram of the APAPfot "system" (singular system---not two separate machines). However, that same Figure 1 delineates multiple circuits comprising the Weinmann APAPfot machine under study.
dsm wrote:I don't think there is a way the above technique could be employed in a single machine.
I think if you Google the term "APAPfot" you will discover that those techniques have, indeed, been combined in a single APAP machine---albeit not a popular APAP implementation by any stretch:

http://www.google.com/search?q=APAPfot& ... =firefox-a

-and-

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=APA ... =en&tab=ws

Anyway, the Weinmann algorithm is based on complex impedance calculations, and that requires a FOT circuit in the same "machine box" as the rest of the APAPfot system. According to Mr. Google, Weinmann employs a proximal sensor to accomplish those FOT-based complex respiratory impedance calculations---including reactance.

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SleepingUgly
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by SleepingUgly » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:49 pm

Hi Barry15, I have the same machine and mask as you. When I switched from nasal pillows to the Quattro, my AHI (and pressures) went up quite a bit. In fact, for someone who has no formal apnea diagnosis, my apnea is not very well controlled (My AHI is often above 5)!
Never put your fate entirely in the hands of someone who cares less about it than you do. --Sleeping Ugly

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Rebecca R
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by Rebecca R » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:51 pm

another_guest wrote:
StillAnotherGuest wrote:
another_guest wrote:
-SWS wrote: It might help our newcomers if I explained that Deltadave, SAG, Muffy, Notmuffy, and sleepydave are all the same person with a great albeit off-beat sense of humor...
and I ain't him
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy A_G!
WB.
Been a long time.
SAG
ty

now will you stay out of trouble so I can go back into hiding? last time I made an appearance was with all the snoredog post removal and mikesus accusing me of being you
You can say you’re not him. And I can say I believe you. But I, for one, am always going to wonder.

After I read enough posts about central apnea, and figure out how to not induce centrals, or at least recognize what induced centrals might look like if I induce them, while increasing my pressure, I think I will look up the above referenced posts....sounds like they happened in the heyday of the forum before my time.

Can anyone direct me to the "How Not to Induce Central Apnea Thread for Dummies"? I don't have that newfangled cpap machine that Barry15 has.

r

you guys are hilarious...even if I don't understand half of what you say...

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dsm
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by dsm » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:58 pm

Rebecca R wrote:
another_guest wrote:
StillAnotherGuest wrote:
another_guest wrote:
-SWS wrote: It might help our newcomers if I explained that Deltadave, SAG, Muffy, Notmuffy, and sleepydave are all the same person with a great albeit off-beat sense of humor...
and I ain't him
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy A_G!
WB.
Been a long time.
SAG
ty

now will you stay out of trouble so I can go back into hiding? last time I made an appearance was with all the snoredog post removal and mikesus accusing me of being you
You can say you’re not him. And I can say I believe you. But I, for one, am always going to wonder.

After I read enough posts about central apnea, and figure out how to not induce centrals, or at least recognize what induced centrals might look like if I induce them, while increasing my pressure, I think I will look up the above referenced posts....sounds like they happened in the heyday of the forum before my time.

Can anyone direct me to the "How Not to Induce Central Apnea Thread for Dummies"? I don't have that newfangled cpap machine that Barry15 has.

r

you guys are hilarious...even if I don't understand half of what you say...
Rebecca,

Logic doesn't come into trying to understand such interactions. If we try to apply logic we run the risk of losing our minds in the confusion. The best approach is to watch & smile. What one might see is what happens when very smart minds get access to public forums Each of those personalities has a lot to offer, just gets confusing when they talk to each other

RestedGal summed it all up very well with her comment 'quirky sense of humour'

DSM
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)

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barry15
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by barry15 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:46 pm

SleepingUgly wrote:Hi Barry15, I have the same machine and mask as you. When I switched from nasal pillows to the Quattro, my AHI (and pressures) went up quite a bit. In fact, for someone who has no formal apnea diagnosis, my apnea is not very well controlled (My AHI is often above 5)!
Hello SleepingUgly,

That is interesting. I used to use nasal pillows, but I haven't used them for a couple of years. Eventually, I will probably try them again, if only to see what kind of results I get and how I sleep. I can't remember why I switched from them to the Ultra Mirage nasal mask that I used with my Autoset T machine for a couple of years. I have only used this Quattro mask for maybe three weeks total so far, first with my Autoset T, and now with the System One (after two weeks with the nasal mask and the System One).

I have lots of experimentation to do over the coming weeks and months, I think. I feel like I am learning a lot and getting lots of great ideas about things to try from this forum.

Barry

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Muse-Inc
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by Muse-Inc » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:01 am

dsm wrote:...just gets confusing when they talk to each other...
Or their multiple personalities

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dsm
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by dsm » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:01 am

barry15 wrote:
SleepingUgly wrote:Hi Barry15, I have the same machine and mask as you. When I switched from nasal pillows to the Quattro, my AHI (and pressures) went up quite a bit. In fact, for someone who has no formal apnea diagnosis, my apnea is not very well controlled (My AHI is often above 5)!
Hello SleepingUgly,

That is interesting. I used to use nasal pillows, but I haven't used them for a couple of years. Eventually, I will probably try them again, if only to see what kind of results I get and how I sleep. I can't remember why I switched from them to the Ultra Mirage nasal mask that I used with my Autoset T machine for a couple of years. I have only used this Quattro mask for maybe three weeks total so far, first with my Autoset T, and now with the System One (after two weeks with the nasal mask and the System One).

I have lots of experimentation to do over the coming weeks and months, I think. I feel like I am learning a lot and getting lots of great ideas about things to try from this forum.

Barry
Barry,

Am interested in what you thought of the Autoset-T in comparison to other & newer machines you have used. Aspects I am interested in are ...

- how did it sound (quiet, noisy)
- how easy was it to use
- did you have a seperate pressure sensing line up to the mask (later Autoset-T models added this - but some DMEs terminated it at the machine)
- how long did you use it for
- did you have any particular problems with it

Thanks

DSM
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)

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Rebecca R
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by Rebecca R » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:02 am

dsm wrote: The best approach is to watch & smile. What one might see is what happens when very smart minds get access to public forums Each of those personalities has a lot to offer, just gets confusing when they talk to each other

RestedGal summed it all up very well with her comment 'quirky sense of humour'

DSM
Oh Thank Goodness...now I don't have to go find a silent leaf blower and a loud speaker. Not to mention researching things like FOT, subatmospheric intraluminal pressure, Weinman....and where to find a fiber-optic nasopharyngoscopy device to measure my pharyngeal occlusion. What the heck, I think I'll look up that Weinman guy anyway.

I think "quirky" could be an understatement perhaps?

r

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dsm
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by dsm » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:03 am

Muse-Inc wrote:
dsm wrote:...just gets confusing when they talk to each other...
Or their multiple personalities
But, each one has its strengths & together, as a team, are formidable

DSM
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)

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Muse-Inc
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Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by Muse-Inc » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:05 am

dsm wrote:...each one has its strengths & together, as a team, are formidable
Without a doubt! And, I'm with Rebecca, y'all are a hoot! Educational and entertaining...what a place!

_________________
Mask: Hybrid Full Face CPAP Mask with Nasal Pillows and Headgear
Humidifier: HumidAire H4i™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Started Aug '07 CPAP Escape at 11 then 9, S9 APAP range 9.8-16, now 10-17
ResMed S9 range 9.8-17, RespCare Hybrid FFM
Never, never, never, never say never.

-SWS
Posts: 5301
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:06 pm

Re: Clear Airway Apnea = Central Apnea?

Post by -SWS » Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:23 am

Rebecca R wrote: Oh Thank Goodness...now I don't have to go find a silent leaf blower and a loud speaker. Not to mention researching things like FOT, subatmospheric intraluminal pressure, Weinman....and where to find a fiber-optic nasopharyngoscopy device to measure my pharyngeal occlusion. What the heck, I think I'll look up that Weinman guy anyway.

I think "quirky" could be an understatement perhaps?

r
Quirky? Okay... I just performed a cursory scan of the avatars and text in this thread and I didn't spot anything quirky---especially in the avatars.

Allegations of quirky... Now THAT'S funny stuff right there... Quirky but funny. Spotted it.