Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
fortomorrow
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by fortomorrow » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:10 am

ractar28 wrote:Wow... just wow. We're suddenly "disabled" because we have a prescription for a CPAP? An "assistive device" could reasonably be interpreted to mean a device assisting with mobility such as a walker, wheelchair, walking cane, etc. If it were a flight where sleep was reasonably expected (long flight, not a 2 hour one), then I can see it too. But when push comes to shove, if we're going to sit around and whine "poor me, I'm disabled", then I can see why folks would make fun of us. And to even consider a CPAP as a "respirator" or ventilator, well, I'm just calling BS. FURTHERMORE, I believe it's a very fair argument that unless you have a method of powering the device (such as a battery), then calling it an "assistive device" when you can't even USE it on-board the plane is disingenuous.
It would be unwise to check it with the rest of your luggage. It's an expensive piece of equipment; what if it gets stolen, lost, or broken? You'll arrive at your destination and then what?

I think you're in a bit of denial. Disability is defined as the lack of ability relative to a personal or group standard or norm. It can involve physical, sensory, cognitive or intellectual impairment, mental disorder or chronic disease. Sleep apnea is a disability in that it results in physical and cognitive impairment if not treated. Without CPAP most people with sleep apnea spend their days in a mental fog, and often with chronic fatigue.

You don't think that's a disability?

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Paul56
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by Paul56 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:14 am

ractar28 wrote:FURTHERMORE, I believe it's a very fair argument that unless you have a method of powering the device (such as a battery), then calling it an "assistive device" when you can't even USE it on-board the plane is disingenuous.
There are two reasons for taking the device into the cabin:

(1) It will be a very long flight and you will be sleeping... or least attempting to... and can power it.

(2) You don't want to tempt fate with putting it in the cargo hold with the other baggage because it could get damaged or worse... lost. Lost baggage happens all the time.

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JayC
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by JayC » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:56 am

Except we have to carry-on rather than check-in our fragile/expensive medically necessary equipment...don't we?

Having medically necessary items doesn't make us necessarily "disabled".


Check the lists at the airlines......LOTS of items are excluded from the count. It is not about disability.....

I sure would not want my carry=on dedicated to CPAP to be arbitrarily rejected for someone else's NON MEDICALLY NECESSARY items.......

????????

J

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ractar28
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by ractar28 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:06 am

fortomorrow wrote:It would be unwise to check it with the rest of your luggage. It's an expensive piece of equipment; what if it gets stolen, lost, or broken? You'll arrive at your destination and then what?
Same as your laptop, same as your other medications, right? I'm not suggesting that people check the things, but rather that INSISTING that they have some entitlement to an extra bag under the guise of "disability" when really, it's a medically-necessary device -- but not medically-required for the duration of the flight. I have to carry a laptop for my job, which is the purpose of my flight. Should I get to carry an extra bag because of that?

It is BECAUSE of people who want to bend rules to fit their own uses that people are such hard-arses about enforcing the rules. This country has become a bastion of pity-parties and lawyer-callers. I can't stand it.
I think you're in a bit of denial. Disability is defined as the lack of ability relative to a personal or group standard or norm. It can involve physical, sensory, cognitive or intellectual impairment, mental disorder or chronic disease. Sleep apnea is a disability in that it results in physical and cognitive impairment if not treated. Without CPAP most people with sleep apnea spend their days in a mental fog, and often with chronic fatigue.

You don't think that's a disability?
I'm not in denial, I'm "lucky" that my apnea isn't as bad as some here. I just don't subscribe to the notion that everyone is entitled to everything they want. The law was quoted if somehow pointing out how right we are and how wrong the airlines are, when the way I read the law, we're really taking some liberties with definitions.

ractar28
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by ractar28 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:15 am

JayC wrote:Except we have to carry-on rather than check-in our fragile/expensive medically necessary equipment...don't we?

Having medically necessary items doesn't make us necessarily "disabled".


Check the lists at the airlines......LOTS of items are excluded from the count. It is not about disability.....

I sure would not want my carry=on dedicated to CPAP to be arbitrarily rejected for someone else's NON MEDICALLY NECESSARY items.......
Now hang on... we're talking two completely different things. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to carry the device as carry-on -- it's expensive and fragile. It SHOULD be allowed as carry-on, if for no other reason that for you to ensure it gets to the destination. However, I'll fight you tooth and nail that my laptop isn't just as important as your cpap. But you're allowed 2 carry on bags, same as everyone else. What you choose to carry in them is up to you.

MMCGOWAN
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by MMCGOWAN » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:42 am

I took mine out of the original bag and put it into a napsack with all of my other junk

I fly three or so times a week and run into this frequently

google the following print it out and keep it with your equipment

14 CFR Section 382.41:

(b) Carriers shall permit qualified individuals
with a disability using personal
ventilators/respirators to bring
their equipment, including non-spillable
batteries that meet the requirements
of 49 CFR 173.159(d) and any applicable
FAA safety regulations, on
board the aircraft and use it.

(d) Carriers shall not, in implementing
their carry-on baggage policies,
count toward a limit on carry-on
items any assistive device brought into
the cabin by a qualified individual with
a disability.

See also http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/20011029.htm

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fortomorrow
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by fortomorrow » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:49 am

ractar28 wrote:Now hang on... we're talking two completely different things. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to carry the device as carry-on -- it's expensive and fragile. It SHOULD be allowed as carry-on, if for no other reason that for you to ensure it gets to the destination. However, I'll fight you tooth and nail that my laptop isn't just as important as your cpap. But you're allowed 2 carry on bags, same as everyone else. What you choose to carry in them is up to you.
Your laptop isn't a matter of life and death for you. YOU can choose what you pot in your carry on bags. CPAP users can't. They HAVE to take their CPAP machine with them.

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ractar28
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by ractar28 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:35 pm

fortomorrow wrote:Your laptop isn't a matter of life and death for you. YOU can choose what you pot in your carry on bags. CPAP users can't. They HAVE to take their CPAP machine with them.
Not true. CPAP users do NOT have to take their machine in the cabin with them unless they are going to NEED it during flight. It's certainly logical to want to carry it on-board, but there's no requirement that it cannot be checked. That's my point.

fortomorrow
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by fortomorrow » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:48 pm

ractar28 wrote:Not true. CPAP users do NOT have to take their machine in the cabin with them unless they are going to NEED it during flight. It's certainly logical to want to carry it on-board, but there's no requirement that it cannot be checked. That's my point.
And if it gets checked, who's liable for it when it gets lost, broken or stolen? And how quickly can a replacement be provided?

You're just being ridiculous.

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Paul56
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by Paul56 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:53 pm

ractar28 wrote:
fortomorrow wrote:Your laptop isn't a matter of life and death for you. YOU can choose what you pot in your carry on bags. CPAP users can't. They HAVE to take their CPAP machine with them.
Not true. CPAP users do NOT have to take their machine in the cabin with them unless they are going to NEED it during flight. It's certainly logical to want to carry it on-board, but there's no requirement that it cannot be checked. That's my point.
I refer you back to my rule #2...
(2) You don't want to tempt fate with putting it in the cargo hold with the other baggage because it could get damaged or worse... lost. Lost baggage happens all the time.

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nomoore
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by nomoore » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:25 pm

ractar28 wrote: Now hang on... we're talking two completely different things. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to carry the device as carry-on -- it's expensive and fragile. It SHOULD be allowed as carry-on, if for no other reason that for you to ensure it gets to the destination. However, I'll fight you tooth and nail that my laptop isn't just as important as your cpap. But you're allowed 2 carry on bags, same as everyone else. What you choose to carry in them is up to you.
Is your health going to be affected if your laptop gets damaged? No. Is it going to be affected if your CPAP gets damaged? Yes.

You can't go to your local drug store to buy a CPAP machine like you can for prescription drugs. A CPAP machine is very expensive. Mine sells for in the neighborhood of $1400 at a DME provider for only the machine. That's a whole 2 weeks pay for me. And that doesn't even include the mask, and other accessories such as a battery. The high price and limited availability when combined with daily medical necessity makes it necessary for my health to make sure the machine does not get lost, damaged, or stolen.

It's not that the CPAP is expensive or fragile or not easily replaced immediately. It's all those reasons combined with the effect on the user's health that makes it important enough to get special treatment. Your laptop can't compare.

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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by Guest » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:36 pm

Am I wrong in thinking that placing a CPAP in an unpressurized environment at 30,000 + feet could cause cause damage to the device?

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Paul56
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by Paul56 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:38 pm

nomoore wrote:Your laptop can't compare.
Well, I dunno... some folks go into *severe* withdrawal symptoms without a constant 'net fix.

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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by Guest » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:41 pm

Let's point out the facts.

1. CPAP/Bi-Level (excluding S/T and ASV's) are NOT ventilators/respirators.

2. Sleep Apnea IS NOT a disability. No matter what your personal beliefs may be about how it SHOULD be classified, it is not.

The only reason that flashing 14 CFR Section 382.41makes them back down is because they don't want to go to court over it. Even if they won, it still costs them money and bad publicity. Two things which neither the Airlines or TSA can afford right now.

HOWEVER I DO agree that people should be allowed to carry on their CPAP/Bi-Level machines. I'm sorry ractar, not to pick on you, but your argument about the laptop has soo many holes in it I don't even know where to start. Computers are readily available for purchase without any delay in just about every corner of the world, the same cannot be said for CPAP/Bi-Level machines.

Pekoepup
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Re: Carry on luggage - CPAP as third bag?

Post by Pekoepup » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:33 pm

There are several different issues going on here.

Is XPAP a life saving therapy? For most of us, probably not. If we don't have it for a night or two, we are not going to feel well but we won't die. For some of us, absolutely yes! Do you want to be the person that decides who needs it to survive the night? Me neither. I work with children who use BiPAP or CPAP at times during the day or all night and they would die without it. Some do fine during the day without support and many appear to be healthy children. Should their equipment go on board with them? Absolutely! Are they disabled? Yes. People that use this equipment do not all fit into a nice little package. There are people with the OSA, muscular dystrophy, MS, SMA, COPD, heart disease, etc. The list goes on and on.

On a trip to Italy, last summer, Alitalia lost our luggage for 10 days. There were eight of us traveling together and not one of us had a suitcase. One of the boys on the trip did not get his luggage until the 14th day of the trip. I was not using XPAP last year and I am so thankful because it would have been a nightmare. It was difficult and costly trying to replace toiletries, clothing, and underwear for eight people in Italy, never mind trying to replace a CPAP unit. No one should ever check their XPAP unit or other components required for therapy in their checked baggage. You must carry it on board along with your medications, etc. I would suggest adding a clean set of undies too after our Italy experience. I don't necessarily think that I have to carry three carry on bags with me and I always try to minimize what I bring on board but I guess I would if I had to. I can't believe what the general public brings on board and they get away with it. It has only worsened since they started to charge for suitcases. Crazy!

My aunt uses XPAP and she came to visit last year. She had placed her CPAP in her checked luggage and Air Canada and kindly left her suitcase behind in Toronto. Talk about a stressed out aunt. It took us 2 days and an act of Congress to get her suitcase returned. She was a first time flier but learned an important lesson. We should all be aware of our rights to carry the equipment that we need to use our therapy and keep our selves safe. It does not mean that we should abuse that right but I don't get the feeling that anyone here is trying to do that. It is better to be armed with knowledge in the event you are faced with an airline employee that is rude, overworked or just plain ignorant.

Just my thoughts anyhow. Thanks.