Rainout Reduction for the Aura Headrest Mask

[rested gal]

Gerald, your creative fix has earned you this...




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[Gerald]

Thanks Laura........

An accolade from the "Mother Superior" of CPAP is an honor.

Best regards,

Gerald

[feeling_better]

Gerald,

I did try this last night. It worked surprisingly well. I did not have a single loose drop of water in the Headrest nasal area in the morning. The wick was uniformly wet, but not dripping.

I did an additional precaution. Instead of simply cutting the ends of the string, as shown in the above photo, I loosely tied that ends and pushed it inside. Having the string in there does not increase the noise, as far as I could tell (I am super noise sensitive).

Also, I was preparing new strings last evening; and to my surprise when I boiled the string, a lot of starch or some such material was released from the string!! Many strings may come treated.

An observation: The prevention of rain out may really reduce the apparent AHI, particularly the A's as measured by the software. Because of the very unpleasantness of the water drop going into my nose, I had learned to hold my breath the 4 or 5 times I turn from side to side at night. I think every one of them used to be counted as an A before. Last night night my A was 0 ! Even though this is a benign A, it still plays havoc with your daily measurements and tunings.

Threading the string still takes a minute plus of time. The XL size Headrest I use seems to have additional obstruction points inside. I did not have the stainless steel fishing leader that Gerald used, but tried various items I had such as thin coated wires, tennis string, ... Since I would not at all feel comfortable just airing out this string inside, even after washing the nose piece in soap and water, the daily replacement chore of the string is one down side left. Still, one drop was robbing me probably 15 min plus of lost sleep time.

Good idea, Gerald! And kudos for having the courage to post such a real far out crazy sounding idea here

[Gerald]

Feeling_Better........

Thanks for the info about the string starch (or whatever)....No telling what's on my string....I just used whatever I could scrounge.

I had orginally thought about making a knot like you have, but I was concerned about reducing the air flow...so, I didn't go that way.

As for the insertion tool....if you don't have fishing leader, you might try a piece of the plastic "string" found on weed-eaters. The only problem with weed-eater "string" is that there's no loop on the end like fishing leader.

I find my fishing leader to be a little too flexible....and I'd like a stiffer one...but Academy Sporting Goods had that one in the correct length....so, that's what I ended up with.

Thanks again for the info....and the posting of the pictures.

Best regards,

Gerald

[feeling_better]

As for the insertion tool....if you don't have fishing leader, you might try a piece of the plastic "string" found on weed-eaters. The only problem with weed-eater "string" is that there's no loop on the end like fishing leader.

Thanks again for the info....and the posting of the pictures.

Best regards,

Gerald

Excellent tip! I happend to have the 0.065 weed eater string! I attached a small loop of wire to the end with heat shrink tubing (heat shrunk in place). This provides the hook, and gets rid of the sharp edge of the end. Threading the leader now takes 3 seconds!

BTW, boiling the thread made it extra fluffy and more absorbent. The extra length of the string from the tying also increased the wicking capacity.

Now if I can figure out how to get rid of the noise, we can go into production of a new mask

[DreamStalker]

As for the insertion tool....if you don't have fishing leader, you might try a piece of the plastic "string" found on weed-eaters. The only problem with weed-eater "string" is that there's no loop on the end like fishing leader.

Thanks again for the info....and the posting of the pictures.

Best regards,

Gerald

Excellent tip! I happend to have the 0.065 weed eater string! I attached a small loop of wire to the end with heat shrink tubing (heat shrunk in place). This provides the hook, and gets rid of the sharp edge of the end. Threading the leader now takes 3 seconds!

BTW, boiling the thread made it extra fluffy and more absorbent. The extra length of the string from the tying also increased the wicking capacity.

Now if I can figure out how to get rid of the noise, we can go into production of a new mask

[feeling_better]

Now if I can figure out how to get rid of the noise [of Headrest], we can go into production of a new mask

Diffuser might work but may also affect leak rate/CO2 retension.

A crafts store carries batting material in upholstery department and Lowes has filters for AC registers ... same as batting material but much smaller size.

DreamStalker, thanks for bringing this up. Have you tried some diffusing material like that near the out port? Every time I tried any type of diffusing material, the noise got higher. You can actually hear the increasing noise as your figures or any obstruction came even close to the port. On top of it the out port of the headrest is at an almost inaccessible location. Have you used the Headrest? Perhaps it is a matter of selecting the correct diffusing material!

For the Headrest, the noise seems to be coming from inside the nasal interface soft rubbery material area, while you breath, but it probably is an illusion. The noise may indeed be produced in the out port.

Have you had any luck with diffuser material for the Headrest? I am eager to hear your tip.

For another mask, Optilife, the best diffuser I found was a very loose about 3" diameter pantyhose -- Rested Gal's solution for everything -- already pre-stretched out and made very very thin. The pressure will keep it like a small balloon there, but it was hard to maintain this Optilife became almost completely silent at that point!!

[DreamStalker]

Now if I can figure out how to get rid of the noise [of Headrest], we can go into production of a new mask

Diffuser might work but may also affect leak rate/CO2 retension.

A crafts store carries batting material in upholstery department and Lowes has filters for AC registers ... same as batting material but much smaller size.

DreamStalker, thanks for bringing this up. Have you tried some diffusing material like that near the out port? Every time I tried any type of diffusing material, the noise got higher. You can actually hear the increasing noise as your figures or any obstruction came even close to the port. On top of it the out port of the headrest is at an almost inaccessible location. Have you used the Headrest? Perhaps it is a matter of selecting the correct diffusing material!

For the Headrest, the noise seems to be coming from inside the nasal interface soft rubbery material area, while you breath, but it probably is an illusion. The noise may indeed be produced in the out port.

Have you had any luck with diffuser material for the Headrest? I am eager to hear your tip.

For another mask, Optilife, the best diffuser I found was a very loose about 3" diameter pantyhose -- Rested Gal's solution for everything -- already pre-stretched out and made very very thin. The pressure will keep it like a small balloon there, but it was hard to maintain this Optilife became almost completely silent at that point!!

Yes, same principle as panty hose on Optilife ... you need to pass the air thru small holes to slow the air down and lower the frequency of the sound while maintaining the volume of air being expelled.

I tried it on the Breeze mask but later just learned to live with the sound since it was not that bad. I gave up on the Headrest early on because of the rainout issues and decided not to pursue trying to make it more quiet.

[birdshell]

Won't adding anything possibly interfere with pressure or exhaust rates? I also have to agree with ozij on the concern with fibers being blown into the body. I think it was the size of the asbestos fibers, not just the fact that they were asbestos, that caused some of the cancer and asbestosis--or at least that is what my oncologist/hematologist says.

I have not had the problem with that amount of rainout, but found that I could turn down the humidifier a notch or two. That is common for me in summer; drier air from the forced air heat requires a bit more humidity. Of course, we have air conditioning on quite a bit, too.

I have no hose cozy in summer, and keep my machine on the floor. That is all I do. AND believe me, we spend most of the summer in a VERY humid environment here in Michigan.
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The slight whistling noise is my only problem now with the Headrest, having gotten my XL pillows in the mail from cpap.com. I can hear it on the side as if my pillows are not seated well, but they are. I am not quite certain if it is the exhaust, but I have suspected it.

If one is to baffle with pantyhose, wouldn't that block some of the airflow that is carrying out CO2? I thought that was carefully engineered to be correct. Would enlarging the holes a touch be a bad idea?
____________________

Roberto, the Breeze (still my favorite but allergic to the silicone ) would make noise for me until I played with the exhaust plug. If I once could get it in just the right place, it would be quiet. I thought it might be the individual plug that I had; I couldn't get any additional replacement plugs before I developed the allergy.
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Thanks for a thought-full thread,

Karen

[Gerald]

Karen........

As I experimented with string in my mask, I found that the small size of the cord didn't affect the pressure.

The flow rate might be affected just a tiny bit, but if it is, I can't tell a difference.

Probably the difference in flow rate could be calculated by looking at the ratio of string cross sectional area compared to the cross sectional area of the nose-piece chamber where it (the string) is positioned.

And as for your concern about the injestion of fibers, I don't think there's any measurable danger. What we're using is cotton string....a natural fiber that's about as non-allergenic as anything we can come into contact with.

We certainly aren't using Asbestos string.

Gerald

[feeling_better]

Karen........

The flow rate might be affected just a tiny bit, but if it is, I can't tell a difference.

Probably the difference in flow rate could be calculated by looking at the ratio of string cross sectional area compared to the cross sectional area of the nose-piece chamber where it (the string) is positioned.

Gerald

With that size string the flow rate may not be affected by even by as little as 1%, most likely even less.

The CO2 wash out will not be reduced either, at least not materially: First, leak ports are before the string. Second, the string actually reduces the dead space where the CO2 tends to accumulate most of the time, so there is even a small chance the effective CO2 washout rate may be increased, though again by a tiny amount.

[birdshell]

Won't adding anything possibly interfere with pressure or exhaust rates? I also have to agree with ozij on the concern with fibers being blown into the body. I think it was the size of the asbestos fibers, not just the fact that they were asbestos, that caused some of the cancer and asbestosis--or at least that is what my oncologist/hematologist says.

<snip>

<snip>

And as for your concern about the injestion of fibers, I don't think there's any measurable danger. What we're using is cotton string....a natural fiber that's about as non-allergenic as anything we can come into contact with.

We certainly aren't using Asbestos string.

Gerald

I understand that you are not using asbestos; it is not a matter of allergies caused by the fiber, but rather the LENGTH of the fiber. I just know that the size of the fibers was my doctor's major concern in my exposure to asbestos.

Further, are you CERTAIN that it IS cotton? And, if it is, what else is in the string...with what has it been treated and where has that cotton twine been (that was intended for use in the recycling of newspapers, etc.)?

Is there medical quality cotton twine? Maybe, cotton string used for cooking would be safer?

Please do not think that I am being critical; I am rather playing devil's advocate in a sense. I feel that is what the forum is here to do. We are all better together than we are by ourselves.



Hey, more power to you if that is what you choose to do. The risk of not using CPAP is probably worse than any danger from the string.




Best wishes to all in getting your treatment tweaked.

Karen,
Who will unfortunately whistle again tonight....

[Gerald]

Birdshell......

I can understand your “concern”….and I realize that you really aren’t being “critical”….and that “in a sense” you’re just playing “Devil’s Advocate”.

Hopefully, this message will put aside your fears for my safety.

Although the string I’ve been using has been certified as being “all cotton” by the Cajun Cotton Growers Association, I’ll have to admit that I reclaimed it from a stack of tied-up Nutria pelts that were trapped in the Louisiana swamps.

The string had a little odor, but it’s tolerable now.

This morning, I had the thought that it might be better if I substitute some mop string. We have a good cotton mop at the office…..one of those big industrial swabs that’ll absorb anything…and it might be better than the twine we use for the Nutrias. The mop string might also have a more pleasing odor.

I understand your concern about “fiber length”….but, up to the present, no “fibers” have been discovered. I have been troubled by a few broken nose hairs…..and their length was significant….but I survived their travel through my nasal passages…..and was able to spit each one of them out just in time.

As to the quality of my experiments, one must realize that we’re a “little behind the times” here in Louisiana….this area is similar to a third world country…except we have Zydeco music. I’m careful not to accept anything on “faith” (belief without proof)…..I utilize the Scientific Method (popularized by Galileo, Newton, and others), the OODA Loop developed by John Boyd, and Occam’s Razor (set forth by Friar William of Ockham). However, I’m extremely concerned that my experiments might gain the attention of Al Bore….and Global Warming might become a big issue.

As I ponder the reality of “string in an Aura”, I’m reminded by the trials and tribulations of other innovators….large and small….over the ages. One example that comes to mind is a quote from a prominent professor at about the time the Wright Brothers got off the ground in their Wright Flyer.
The professor stated….in no uncertain terms….”If God had intended man to fly, He would have given man wings”.

As a point of interest…this E-mail message is being written on my Chinese built Lenovo Laptop……at an altitude of about 40,000 feet….traveling at the speed of a .45 caliber pistol bullet….while I’m comfortably seated in a Boeing 757.

Just kidding………….

Gerald

[roster]

................ the string I’ve been using has been certified as being “all cotton” ...

Well Chicken Little is my cuz (and Birdshell also) and Chicken Little said:

Cotton is the world’s dirtiest crop, responsible for the release of $2 billion worth of pesticides every year, and accounts for more insecticide release than any other single crop. A teaspoon of aldicarb—a pesticide widely used in cotton production in the U.S.—is sufficient to kill an adult. ............Farmers in the United States apply nearly one-third of a pound of chemical fertilizers and pesticides for every pound of cotton harvested. Some of these chemicals are among the most toxic classified by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. In developing countries, where regulations are less stringent, the amount of herbicides and insecticides and their toxicity is often greater than in the U.S.

* In California, five of the top nine pesticides used on cotton are cancer-causing chemicals (cyanazine, dicofol, naled, propargite and trifluralin).
* In Egypt, more than 50% of cotton workers in the 1990s suffered symptoms of chronic pesticide poisoning, including neurological and vision disorders.
* In India, 91% of male cotton workers exposed to pesticides eight hours or more per day experienced some type of health disorder, including chromosomal aberrations, cell death and cell cycle delay.
* In the US, a 1987 National Cancer Institute Study found a nearly seven-fold higher risk of leukemia for children whose parents used pesticides in their homes or gardens.
* The World Health Organization estimates that at least three million people are poisoned by pesticides every year and 20-40,000 more are killed.
* Over 1 million Americans will learn they have some form of cancer and 10,400 people in the U.S. die each year from cancer related to pesticides:

........... “We used to get many skin problems—rashes and dizziness,” says cotton worker Zohra Bibi. “We would use the same dirty hands for cooking afterwards and sometimes we would even use the empty pesticide bottles in our kitchens to store wheat or water for our cpap humidifiers!"

Moral of the story: Go with hemp twine. You will sleep more peacefully. I learned this in the sixties. .

[Gerald]

Well...gosh...Rooster......

Evidently I don't have long to live...........I've worked so hard to keep myself alive with a CPAP machine........only to do myself in with a piece of cotton string. What irony!

Gerald