Dating and the Single Cpap-er Redux

[Guest]

Oh Rooster.... I was mean, but I didn't disparage the man's genitalia!

Tsk Tsk!

LOL,
Babs

[sharon1965]

To get a really honest perspective on marriage and relationships, you have to get one or two under your belt. Getting hurt really bad teaches you a lot. I've been down the aisle twice and to court twice. Due to that experience, I really don't expect my GF to make me happy. It damn sure was my first two wives job to make me happy. It's called growing up. Some may do this a different way than I did, but what I did taught me what I needed to learn.
FWIW
JeffH

jeff
i did read your post well and i agree with you 100%...

my 45 year old brother married his wife when they were just 20, and hadn't had much experience with dating or life in general...he has since left his wife after more than 20 years, and started dating a 25 yr. old...they lasted 2.5 years; it's over now and he is a complete mess...why? because he didn't have enough experience to know how to conduct himself in his new relationship, and he's suffering now like he would if he was 16 because he doesn't have enough experience to know how to manage the break up with dignity; ironically, the 25 year old is handling it like anyone with plenty of experience would...

[roster]

Oh Rooster.... I was mean, but I didn't disparage the man's genitalia!

Tsk Tsk!

LOL,
Babs

Babs,

Your mind goes straight to a place mine rarely visits.

Rooster

[Guest]

Don't play innocent with ME Rooster, remember, I'm your new Plaything.

Sharon, you didn't tell me you had a single brother... Of course, I can't compete with 25 year olds, so I'd better just stop right there.

One day, many moons ago, when I was about 22, and mooning over a failed relationship, I heard the Rolling Stones on the radio. They were singing "I will come to your emotional rescue." And right that very moment I slammed my fist on the dashboard and yelled "I can come to my own g-damn emotional rescue!" and have been attempting to do that ever since.

Unfortunately, my rescue techniques often involve cigarrettes and high-fat ice cream, and large amounts of time lying slothfully on the couch watching TV.

Perhaps I need some new rescue techniques. But I don't need someone else to MAKE ME WHOLE. I AM WHOLE. I would just like to share the crazy ride.

Cheers,
Babs

[zzzzzz!!]

Hey Echo - You up for a weekend in Amsterdam?

What happens in Amsterdam stays in Amsterdam?

Hey, if you guys ever make it there, give me a holler... it's not that far away!

[schleima]

Don't play innocent with ME Rooster, remember, I'm your new Plaything.

Sharon, you didn't tell me you had a single brother... Of course, I can't compete with 25 year olds, so I'd better just stop right there.

One day, many moons ago, when I was about 22, and mooning over a failed relationship, I heard the Rolling Stones on the radio. They were singing "I will come to your emotional rescue." And right that very moment I slammed my fist on the dashboard and yelled "I can come to my own g-damn emotional rescue!" and have been attempting to do that ever since.

Unfortunately, my rescue techniques often involve cigarrettes and high-fat ice cream, and large amounts of time lying slothfully on the couch watching TV.

Perhaps I need some new rescue techniques. But I don't need someone else to MAKE ME WHOLE. I AM WHOLE. I would just like to share the crazy ride.

Cheers,
Babs

Babette, I really did not start all this to make you feel bad or anything, and I'm sorry if I did. These are simply my observations on life, based on a certain amount of pain, and my writing here is 100% the truth (from my perspective.)

I think you touch on an interesting topic. I was not whole without my wife, and I knew it before and I know it now. But in our culture, it's not politically correct these days to admit that, unless you've been married for 50 years, and then it's seen as an idealized romance that would garner a standing ovation on Oprah. But if a 30 year old were to say that, it would be met with suspicion and derision.

This is just one more element of romance and courting in our society that I never "fit in" with, and I suspect many other people don't fit in to as well. But it's like I said before, it's hard to know if you're best suited to a "5" when the only options presented to you are A, B and C. I really believe that the pain that you and Treesap describe is symptomatic of a fundamental and complex dysfuntion in our culture. It's easier to see this if you spend time abroad, looking in from the outside (or get involved with a foreigner or two This comes from experience, having dated a girl from Montreal, a Dutch girl and now my wife who is from Taiwan)

But you're absolutely right, Babette-- your experiences are yours and not mine. However I do think the pain is the same, just to different levels of severity. I've had maybe 5 girlfriends in my life, but only one gut wrenching, life-changing breakup on which the bulk of my worldview on relationships is based. If I had been through multiple divorces, court battles, etc., I'm sure my perspective would be less rosy. But I can't speak to that point, because it's not my life. I'm just sharing my own perspective, from my little corner of the world, and how I found happiness after living through several years of pain and loneliness, and you can choose to take away from it (or not take away) whatever bits seem to work for you, at the place in your life that you are now.

That's the beginning and the end of the whole point of my contribution here.

Adam

[sharon1965]

Sharon, you didn't tell me you had a single brother... Of course, I can't compete with 25 year olds, so I'd better just stop right there.
Cheers,
Babs

babs,

didn't you know? i've got brothers, brothers and more brothers and they're all on a continuous loop of single, married, on-the-rocks, divorced, single, married, on-the-rocks, divorced...you get the picture...sometimes they take turns, sometimes they're all on the same page...

the two oldest are currently in their married (re-married) phase but the two younger ones are in flux, so i could keep you posted...though i'm sure you're seeing a trend here that might put you off...or make you run the four minute mile in the other direction!

unlike rooster's experience, the role modeling wasn't quite what it could have been...so in more ways than one, i'm just grateful to have been born the only female offspring in my particular family of origin; mon freres are just one demographic i'm happy not to be lumped in with

adam,
i think you took a bit of a beating on this thread and i have to acknowledge the fact that i feel you've taken it with a certain amount of grace and aplomb

LOOK OUT!! we're an opinionated bunch around here!

[Treesap]

Jeff,

I have a different perspective on happiness. I don't expect any partner to make me happy. I had to learn to get happy by myself. When you find your soulmate and you find happiness within yourself, life is good. Expecting someone to provide your happiness will result in many disappointments.

But I bet you didn't show up on the planet with that knowledge. I used to believe in soul mates but then age took care of that.

And you didn't read my post very well....I don't expect a mate to make me happy either. In my younger days I did.....we all do if we get honest with ourselves.

Jeff,

I apologize. I did read your previous post incorrectly.

You are right, I wasn't born knowing what I know today. I was kind of slow because I was 38 before I figured out what I wanted in life and out of a mate. I always say better late than never! There really are a lot of people out there who didn't figure this out because they stay in terrible marriages because they honor their commitment to marriage more than their own sanity, well-being, or even life sometimes.

I still believe in soulmates though. I don't believe everyone meets their's always.

[schleima]

adam,
i think you took a bit of a beating on this thread and i have to acknowledge the fact that i feel you've taken it with a certain amount of grace and aplomb

Thanks Sharon. American dating culture does a great job in beating people down, and there aren't too many people out there like me railing against the status quo... instead there are tons of 'experts' who offer options on working within the confines of this broken system. I feel the system is dead broken, and I feel in conjunction with negative aspects of our "instant gratification" culture, it warps people's expectations.

I have a good friend who is involved in the typical dating scene and is always sad about her romantic failures. Yet she keeps going back, because she sees no other alternative. But in many instances, she's as guilty as the guys she dates because pretty much every time, either she or the guy figures "There could be someone better around the corner." This is an extension of the "I can have it when I want it, how I want it, and if I don't like it I can return it" attitude that more and more defines American culture (and few other places in the world.)

Let's draw an analogy with the famous Burger King slogan. Let's say I don't like tomatoes. Would it kill me to have my burger with tomatoes, just once? Of course not, but I hate tomatoes, dammit! I don't want a tomato! I'm an American, and I don't like being told what I can and can't do. And off the tomatoes go. But imagine a situation where they refuse to remove the tomato... or the tomato is small and hidden below the burger. I eat it, and by the time I notice, it's too late. What harm has been done? Does it really rock my universe that I ate a damned tomato? In fact, if I kept eating my burger with tomatoes, I might eventually develop a taste for it. If I had stuck with my "prince burger charming" ideal and hadn't branched out, I'd still be eating the same thing.

People are remarkably adaptable-- it's usually attitude that holds us back. How many people in India do you think complain that they can't eat spicy food? When it's part of your culture, you adapt. Just because you can "have it your way" all the time doesn't mean it's healthy to feel as if its an entitlement. But that is how our culture works, and this feeling of entitlement extends to dating. And the real problem is that it's not enough for my friend to take this info to heart... she has to find a guy who ALSO has come to this realization. And that is the proverbial needle in the haystack, and that is why the system is broken.

Too many people with too many unrealistic and unhealthy expectations, pursuing the same broken track, running around in the same dizzying circle.

I really feel that as long as my friend keeps this attitude about "someone better", she will keep searching. Note that this does NOT mean settling for a debt-ridden loser. This means altering her expections to include guys who might be different from people she's used to. It means going about finding those guys in different ways, outside of the bar/church/internet paradigm that seems to define America's failing dating culture. The problem as I see it is that too many people have been trained to look for "something better" instead of seeing the perfectly good tomato in front of them (so to speak). It's the same attitude that prods people on to upgrade to that new car, that new iPhone, that new Widget X even though there's nothing wrong with the old one. Upgrade upgrade upgrade. Bullshit. There's nothing wrong with what you've got right in front of you. Seriously. If my friend got off the hamster wheel and looked at it from the outside, she'd see she's just running in circles. And I really believe that once she accepts that, half the battle is won. She then needs to find a guy who understands this too, and who appreciates the fact that she is all the more valuable for being able to truly appreciate someone who might have a surprise tomato tucked away here and there.

I really sympathise with Babette. There are so many people that are frustrated, as I was for a long time. But it's such a personal thing that one can't help but blame oneself. Hardly anyone examines the deep rooted reasons why SO MANY people got beaten down SO OFTEN in the first place, and the toll that takes on our souls and collective psyche.

I really can't advocate strongly enough getting out of the country for a while in order to take a look in from the outside.

Adam

[Snoredog]

What have I stumbled into?

Is this the Why I got rejected by the eHarmony website???


Haven't you guys noticed from the commercials the people from there are a bit strange?

whooboy

[zzzzzz!!]

I really can't advocate strongly enough getting out of the country for a while in order to take a look in from the outside.

Getting away can give you a different perspective but not necessarily any answers.

Granted, the differences you find depend on the culture in which you find yourself. And I think no matter where you go you'll find complainers and people who feel entitled to have precisely what they want (or if they don't exactly feel entitled, they may feel justified to act in whatever means necessary to get the desired results). Your food example made me smile. Perhaps the Indians you reference who are accustomed to spicy food would complain and refuse to eat food that's too bland. Before coming here I imagined the French to be less picky in their food choices than Americans, but there are just as many who say "no, I don't like that" or "Yuck, I'm not even going to try that".

I came over here at 41, after two failed marriages in the US, and proceeded to finally discover "me" rather than the roles I had been expected to play. Being in a different place gave me the freedom to explore who I am and to learn why the traditional US lifestyle didn't work for me--I don't fit into that mold. The French have their own societal scripts and molds, but since as a foreigner I don't fit into those anyway, I'm much more free to be different.

This is not to say that dating isn't frustrating here as well. It's similar in some ways, different in others, and as in the US varies depending on whether you're in a big city or in the countryside. I can't truly make a good comparison between that here and in the US because as an adult in the US I was married and monogamous and so never had to deal with the dating scene there.

And yes (to get a bit off-topic, or perhaps on-topic), throwing a CPAP into the mix changes things too.

Sorry, it's late and my thoughts are not well organized... I can relate to many elements of Babette's dating laments (at times it's almost a little scary! ) and just wanted to chime in, though my two cents aren't worth much over here!

[JeffH]

Adam, you are a long winded 'paper...LOL.

Like Willie Nelson says...there wouldn't be country music if everybody was with who they wanted to be with.

[schleima]

Adam, you are a long winded 'paper...LOL.

Like Willie Nelson says...there wouldn't be country music if everybody was with who they wanted to be with.

Ha, yes... all too true. It's the pain from my past that prompts the passion and the long windedness. I just hope that someone can take something constructive away from my pain.

Adam

[echo]

weeee lovin' this thread!

zzzzzz!! Wow we managed to pull you out of hiding with an enticing trip to Amsterdam hahahahhaa I'm closer to you than that Now we gotta find a way to get Babs here.

Babs - You know, there are sometimes really good last minute and off season tickets you might be able to get for a few-day trip to Europe. Think about it, you've got TWO offers now. Anywhere between Amsterdam and Paris...!

Rooster - you said it better than I was even thinking it. I also wanted to touch on the required two-income household but you put it well.

Schleima - Sharon said it well. I hope you don't take this thread as a bashing -- more of a good natured debate We all look through life through our own rose-colored lenses (or whatever the saying is... I'm horrible with sayings).
I think you understand my point that I think it's more about being SPOILED than anything else. That goes for Europe too. I don't know enough about the far east to comment on that. The more things we can attain, the more we want, and the more picky we are. I've also read a study that showed that there is a correlation between a woman's education level and age and how choosey she is in picking a mate. So a " modern day " woman really has high standards that are difficult for many men to meet - and I think that's what you are also referring to.

Now food in different cultures - that's another fun post. I miss good Indian food around here

[roster]

Well since this thread is going nowhere anyway, I will just throw in some random crap.

1. My wife's sister has three daughters with advanced degrees and professional success. Their ages stretch from 29 to 38. No boyfriends, no prospects. One will tell you she is desperate and you can see it in the eyes of the other two. This pains me to think about it but I have no idea what to do (and if I ever get an idea I probably should not do it). Thank God for my precious wife of 32 years.

2. I traveled on business and occasional vacations for 35 years to North and South America, Europe and Asia. I had plenty of strong relations that spilled over to become friendships and was in many business associates homes spending time with them and their spouses and children. This is very rewarding but it ain't gonna help you with a marriage!