Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

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Perchancetodream
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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by Perchancetodream » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:35 pm

sgrol wrote:
Perchancetodream wrote:
WearyOne wrote:
Someone once mentioned that he used distilled water as a final rinse which probably wouldn't hurt, but most bacteria will be killed with warm water and soap (not anti-bacterial soap).

Susan

What's wrong with antibacterial soap? I've been using it for cleaning/soaking tubing and mask parts for years.
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Warm water and soap will kill most common germs and bacteria. Using antibacterial soap probably won't give you much more protection, but the overuse of these soaps tend to make them less effective for those who need them (nursing home & hospital staff).

That is according to Consumer Reports OnHealth, November, 2007, issue which reported on the antibiotic resistant infections that are on the rise in the US. Improper use of antibiotics over the years has contributed to the problem.

And, the manual that came with my mask says to use warm water and "mild dishwashing detergent."

Susan


SleepDeprivedInOhio

Legionella

Post by SleepDeprivedInOhio » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:43 pm

Legionella is actually normal flora in some tap water. Drinking it won't hurt, but inhaling it can lead to big trouble. It's ok to rinse equipment in hot tap water IF it has time to thoroughly dry before use.

Here is a short article that tells a bit about it from Medic8 (Infectious Diseases):

Legionellosis (Legonella Infection)
- Legionnaires' Disease (LD) and Pontiac Fever
Legionellosis is an infection caused by the bacterium Legionella pneumophila. The disease has two distinct forms:

Legionnaires' disease, the more severe form of infection which includes pneumonia, and
Pontiac fever, a milder illness.
Legionnaires' disease acquired its name in 1976 when an outbreak of pneumonia occurred among persons attending a convention of the American Legion in Philadelphia. Later, the bacterium causing the illness was named Legionella.

What is Legionnaires’ disease?

Legionnaires’ disease (LEE-juh-nares) is caused by a type of bacteria called Legionella. The bacteria got its name in 1976, when many people who went to a Philadelphia convention of the American Legion suffered from an outbreak of this disease, a type of pneumonia (lung infection). Although this type of bacteria was around before1976, more illness from Legionnaires’ disease is being detected now. This is because we are now looking for this disease whenever a patient has pneumonia.

Each year, between 8,000 and 18,000 people are hospitalized with Legionnaires' disease in the U.S. However, many infections are not diagnosed or reported, so this number may be higher. More illness is usually found in the summer and early fall, but it can happen any time of year.

What are the symptoms of Legionnaires’ disease?

Legionnaires' disease can have symptoms like many other forms of pneumonia, so it can be hard to diagnose at first. Signs of the disease can include: a high fever, chills, and a cough. Some people may also suffer from muscle aches and headaches. Chest X-rays are needed to find the pneumonia caused by the bacteria, and other tests can be done on sputum (phlegm), as well as blood or urine to find evidence of the bacteria in the body.

These symptoms usually begin 2 to 14 days after being exposed to the bacteria.

A milder infection caused by the same type of Legionella bacteria is called Pontiac Fever. The symptoms of Pontiac Fever usually last for 2 to 5 days and may also include fever, headaches, and muscle aches; however, there is no pneumonia. Symptoms go away on their own without treatment and without causing further problems.

Pontiac Fever and Legionnaires’ disease may also be called “Legionellosis” (LEE-juh-nuh-low-sis) separately or together.

How serious is it? What is the treatment?

Legionnaires' disease can be very serious and can cause death in up to 5% to 30% of cases. Most cases can be treated successfully with antibiotics [drugs that kill bacteria in the body], and healthy people usually recover from infection.

Where doLegionella bacteria come from?

The Legionella bacteria are found naturally in the environment, usually in water. The bacteria grow best in warm water, like the kind found in hot tubs, cooling towers, hot water tanks, large plumbing systems, or parts of the air-conditioning systems of large buildings. They do not seem to grow in car or window air-conditioners.

How do people get Legionnaires’ disease?

People get Legionnaires' disease when they breathe in a mist or vapor (small droplets of water in the air) that has been contaminated with the bacteria. One example might be from breathing in the steam from a whirlpool spa that has not been properly cleaned and disinfected.

The bacteria are NOT spread from one person to another person.

Outbreaks are when two or more people become ill in the same place at about the same time, such as patients in hospitals. Hospital buildings have complex water systems, and many people in hospitals already have illnesses that increase their risk for Legionella infection.

Other outbreaks have been linked to aerosol sources in the community, or with cruise ships and hotels, with the most likely sources being whirlpool spas, cooling towers (air-conditioning units from large buildings), and water used for drinking and bathing.

Who gets this disease?

People most at risk of getting sick from the bacteria are older people (usually 65 years of age or older), as well as people who are smokers, or those who have a chronic lung disease (like emphysema).

People who have weak immune systems from diseases like cancer, diabetes, or kidney failure are also more likely to get sick from Legionella bacteria. People who take drugs to suppress (weaken) the immune system (like after a transplant operation or chemotherapy) are also at higher risk.

What should I do if I think I was exposed to Legionella bacteria?

Most people exposed to the bacteria do not become ill. If you have reason to believe you were exposed to the bacteria, talk to your doctor or local health department. Be sure to mention if you have traveled in the last two weeks.

A person diagnosed with Legionnaires’ disease in the workplace is not a threat to others who share office space or other areas with him or her. However, if you believe that there your workplace was the source of the person’s illness, contact your local health department.

Ginger_Kitten

Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by Ginger_Kitten » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:58 am

I'm so glad that, in the ten years since this was posted, companies have moved away from people washing their masks and supplies. Most insurance companies now pay for enough supplies we can change them every week rather than risk issues with using the wrong water or not getting cleaned as frequently as the supplies need to be cleaned.

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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by Goofproof » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:14 pm

Too bad our our old post delete button is broken....
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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by palerider » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:25 pm

Ginger_Kitten wrote:I'm so glad that, in the ten years since this was posted, companies have moved away from people washing their masks and supplies. Most insurance companies now pay for enough supplies we can change them every week rather than risk issues with using the wrong water or not getting cleaned as frequently as the supplies need to be cleaned.
this is stupid.

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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by chunkyfrog » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:38 pm

Agreed. When our insurance pays for something, WE are actually footing the bill,
usually with a substantial markup! Costs go up---premiums go up.
When the insurance carriers can get away with it, people become uninsurable.
Then their expenses are paid by everyone else.
We already know that a reasonable amount of cleaning can extend wear, but too much can shorten it.
The sad truth is that supplies are too often designed for a ridiculously short life span---PURE GREED!

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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by Wulfman... » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:08 pm

Ginger_Kitten wrote:I'm so glad that, in the ten years since this was posted, companies have moved away from people washing their masks and supplies. Most insurance companies now pay for enough supplies we can change them every week rather than risk issues with using the wrong water or not getting cleaned as frequently as the supplies need to be cleaned.
No. As was previously stated, when everybody takes advantage of what "insurance will pay", the cost of insurance goes up.
It was philosophies like yours (give me all I can get), way back when, which pushed me into doing my longevity tests on my "consumables" to see just how long they WOULD last. I'm still using my original mask (changed a couple of cushions and headgear and a couple of mask parts along the way) and still using my original hose. And, all of my equipment and supplies were paid for out of my own pocket (my insurance provider reimbursed me for 80% of my very first CPAP and supplies because I had already met my deductible).
So, if you're getting supplies at frequent intervals, thank all of the other folks who are paying for your stuff. Yes, I know you're also (probably) paying premiums, but the insurance companies are going to maximize their profits and raise the rates on everybody.

Have a nice day.


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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:17 pm

palerider wrote:this is stupid.
chunkyfrog wrote:When our insurance pays for something, WE are actually footing the bill, ... Costs go up---premiums go up.
Wulfman... wrote:No. As was previously stated, when everybody takes advantage of what "insurance will pay", the cost of insurance goes up.
+1
+1
+1

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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by sc0ttt » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:06 pm

Wulfman... wrote: No. As was previously stated, when everybody takes advantage of what "insurance will pay", the cost of insurance goes up.
It was philosophies like yours (give me all I can get), way back when, which pushed me into doing my longevity tests on my "consumables" to see just how long they WOULD last.
.
I wouldn't advocate for taking everything insurance will cover even if you don't need it. But there are ways of structuring your benefits that are legitimate. Like accepting the regular monthly package of supplies from the DME with just the copay until you have a good backup supply of everything and then opting out. This can work especially well if you schedule it with your annual deductible in mind.

I've got a box full of nasal pillows and filters and haven't charged anything to insurance for a year.

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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by Wulfman... » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:36 pm

sc0ttt wrote:
Wulfman... wrote: No. As was previously stated, when everybody takes advantage of what "insurance will pay", the cost of insurance goes up.
It was philosophies like yours (give me all I can get), way back when, which pushed me into doing my longevity tests on my "consumables" to see just how long they WOULD last.
.
I wouldn't advocate for taking everything insurance will cover even if you don't need it. But there are ways of structuring your benefits that are legitimate. Like accepting the regular monthly package of supplies from the DME with just the copay until you have a good backup supply of everything and then opting out. This can work especially well if you schedule it with your annual deductible in mind.

I've got a box full of nasal pillows and filters and haven't charged anything to insurance for a year.
I've always advocated having spares.......backup machines and supplies. The thing I don't advocate is abusing "the system".


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D.H.
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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by D.H. » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:41 pm

Legionnaire's Disease is caused by birds (especially pigeons) defecating into ventilation systems. Unless you have a pet bird (or sleep outdoors) the chance is zero.

If either of those things apply, the chance is still remote, just slightly more than zero.

If you're worried about bacteria-borne illness, you can put Legionnaire's Disease at the bottom of the list. However, if bacteria-borne illness does concern you, just be careful to follow the recommended cleaning and replacement schedule from the manufacturer.

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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by palerider » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:50 pm

sc0ttt wrote:I've got a box full of nasal pillows and filters and haven't charged anything to insurance for a year.
everyone should have a spare or two of *everything*. mask parts, hose, filters, machine...

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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by chunkyfrog » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:23 pm

Too many DME's subscribe to JIT (just in time).
Unfortunately, the interpretation is all wrong.
Instead of keeping a short term inventory, they have NO inventory.
If you wait until you really NEED an itm, it may be weeks nefore you will see it.
Back ups are essential--even if only for your own sanity.

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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by sewsleepy » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:26 pm

I realize this is an old thread but it piqued my interest because I'm trying to figure out just little washing of equipment I can get away with.

I went to the government published medical database and searched for 'legionella cpap' and came up with only 2 results, one is Dutch, the other German. The first is a case of a man who contracted legionella and a test of his cpap equipment showed it was present there. We are not told if he used distilled water but we are told, "The CPAP equipment showed signs of poor maintenance." He had been on cpap therapy for 10 weeks.

The second is a study done of 13 patients in which they assessed the bacterial and fungal colonisation of their nasal masks after 2 weeks of use with systems with heated humidifiers, with heat & moisture exchangers, and without humidification. They found pathogens on the equipment in all 3 cases (legionella was not found), but no one in the study had any infection. It's not clear whether the masks were washed during the 2 week study periods, not much detail is given.

Anyway, I thought this might be of interest to anyone looking this up in future. It sounds like it "is possible" but there is only the one reported case and the cpap equipment in that case sounds dubious as to whether clean, distilled water was being used.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27096478

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9012182
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Re: Concern over Legionnaires Disease?

Post by Goofproof » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:44 pm

That's real easy, None! All I wash is my black foam filter. I no longer use the HH! every 3 to 4 weeks I wash the black filter and change the white one. Jim
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