Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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RicaLynn
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by RicaLynn » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:14 pm

Already some very astute answers here, but I'll relay my anecdotal: I firmly believe my father's death was secondary to his severe sleep apnea. Cause of death was a heart attack, but I believe many of his longstanding health issues (HBP, high cholesterol, COPD [in part]) could be traced back to years and years of untreated acute sleep apnea. By the time he started PAP therapy in his mid-50's the damage to his organs was already done, but successful PAP therapy and better sleep quality improved his quality of life and probably somewhat extended the quantity.

The weekend prior to his death, he had tried to reach me by phone on several occasions, saying that something was wrong with his CPAP, that it wasn't working properly, and the (assisted living) facility staff weren't able to help him with it. I was quite tied up that weekend, and as I knew little to nothing about the machines at the time (I'd only been diagnosed myself 3 months prior) I decided to just wait until Monday when I could call the DME on his behalf. Monday morning he was discovered in his apartment, having suffered a fatal heart attack on his way back from the bathroom sometime during the night; he was already cold. I believe something had indeed gone pear-shaped with his pap therapy, and between the extra stress on his heart from that and his nerves being on edge from knowing it wasn't working properly, it induced the MI that killed him.

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by tlohse » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:10 pm

I suppose almost anything can kill you.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:02 pm

tlohse wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:10 pm
I suppose almost anything can kill you.
I'll take my chances with Teddy Bears. You can take yours with sleep apnea.

TerrificSoporific
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by TerrificSoporific » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:48 pm

I have performed thousands of diagnostic sleep studies over 15 years and not once have I observed an incident where the person did not spontaneously take another breath after a severe obstruction. I have observed oxygen levels dropping to 38% [given too that at this level there is a degree of inaccuracy with an oximeter, but it still remains an acceptable strong indicator that the person has a very severe condition], I have observed people having over 800 breathing blockages in one night alone.
What I have observed is that is some cases when a person is having multiple obstructive events with significant drops in blood oxygen, that heart rhythm problems kick in. These cardiac arrhythmias can be so severe that they are life threatening, where the study must be stopped and the patient transferred to an acute cardiac unit.
So I would suggest that for someone to die on the one night that they do not use CPAP that this person has sustained significant cardiac damage in the past, and the one night without CPAP resulted in too much strain being placed on an already damaged heart, resulting in a heart attack and death.
There are other possible and reasonable scenarios.
What I have observed is just how powerful the body's drive is to make a person take a breath after an apnoea. It is a super powerful drive. Just try and hold your breath for a few minutes and see how terrible your body makes you feel. Your body makes you take another breath. Just as it does this while awake, it does it while asleep. That drive to breath can only be stopped by other factors, e.g. cardiac arrest, stroke, etc.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:55 pm

TerrificSoporific wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:48 pm
I have performed thousands of diagnostic sleep studies over 15 years
Your experience lacks something. You have probably performed very few, if any, studies of people who have used CPAP effectively for a few years or longer. With successful CPAP use, the defenses to apnea the body has built up are lost. Now comes that one night without CPAP, and it's like suddenly introducing a severe case of sleep apnea. This is a very dangerous night. More dangerous than for someone with a similar case of apnea who has never been treated.

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by freetimecreations » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:42 pm

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:55 pm
TerrificSoporific wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:48 pm
I have performed thousands of diagnostic sleep studies over 15 years
Your experience lacks something. You have probably performed very few, if any, studies of people who have used CPAP effectively for a few years or longer. With successful CPAP use, the defenses to apnea the body has built up are lost. Now comes that one night without CPAP, and it's like suddenly introducing a severe case of sleep apnea. This is a very dangerous night. More dangerous than for someone with a similar case of apnea who has never been treated.
I believe he does have the experience needed. It seems to me that after 15 years he probably has performed many follow up sleep studies or sleep studies to renew prescriptions. This would count as a study done on someone who has used CPAP effectively? for a few years.

I do see what you are saying about skipping a night of CPAP, though a quick web search did not find an answer if this is something to be concerned with in all users.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:45 pm

freetimecreations wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:42 pm
I believe he does have the experience needed. It seems to me that after 15 years he probably has performed many follow up sleep studies or sleep studies to renew prescriptions. This would count as a study done on someone who has used CPAP effectively? for a few years.
Good grief! TerrificSoporific is capable of answering for himself.
Last edited by ChicagoGranny on Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:49 pm

freetimecreations wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:42 pm
he probably has performed many follow up sleep studies or sleep studies to renew prescriptions.
This is not done under Medicare or any insurance I have used. The original diagnosis is good for life. The prescription can be renewed without a new sleep study - only CPAP compliance has to be documented.

What a waste of money and other resources if CPAP patients were to be routinely sent for diagnostic studies!

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jnk...
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by jnk... » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:04 pm

Let's come at it another way then, with a few questions:

When someone dies in his sleep from a cardiac-related problem (not a rare occurance whether a particular tech has happened to witness it or not), what exactly is the triggering event during sleep that most likely caused it? Dreaming he hit the ground?

What method would a coroner use to rule out that the body's struggling to breathe against an apnea wasn't what triggered the event that led to the death? Exactly.

Why is it so important that sleep techs are trained in CPR?

Every sleep tech has seen and recorded very violent reactions to long apneas. No one believes those violent reactions are good for you. Those apneas are a form of physical trauma. And just like any other medical bodily trauma, it has the potential to kill. And that, in my opinion, is the point.
-jeff, a user (not a pro) who suffers from an ongoing, long-term, nocturnal addiction to air (S9/P10)

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:14 pm

jnk... wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:04 pm
what exactly is the triggering event during sleep that most likely caused it?
---------------->

OSA has a high prevalence and is characterized by acute nocturnal hemodynamic and neurohormonal abnormalities that may increase the risk of MI (myocardial infarcation) during the night. ... The diurnal variation in the onset of MI in OSA patients is strikingly different from the diurnal variation in non-OSA patients. ... MI occurred between midnight and 6am in 32% of OSA patients and 7% of non-OSA patients (P=0.01). ... Patients with nocturnal onset of MI have a high likelihood of having OSA. These findings suggest that OSA may be a trigger for MI.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598735/

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RicaLynn
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by RicaLynn » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:18 pm

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:14 pm
---------------->

OSA has a high prevalence and is characterized by acute nocturnal hemodynamic and neurohormonal abnormalities that may increase the risk of MI (myocardial infarcation) during the night. ... The diurnal variation in the onset of MI in OSA patients is strikingly different from the diurnal variation in non-OSA patients. ... MI occurred between midnight and 6am in 32% of OSA patients and 7% of non-OSA patients (P=0.01). ... Patients with nocturnal onset of MI have a high likelihood of having OSA. These findings suggest that OSA may be a trigger for MI.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598735/
BINGO.

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D.H.
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succumbed To Apnea? Better Question

Post by D.H. » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:35 am

I think that the better question is, "out of a random sample of 1000 adult deaths in the U.S. (or any other advanced country), in how many of them is untreated and/or undiagnosed SDB a contributing factor?"

I suspect that this answer is much higher than most realize!

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by TerrificSoporific » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:09 pm

Thank you freetimecreations, you are correct. I have performed many hundreds of studies on long term successful users of CPAP, these include both Review CPAP Trials and repeat diagnostic sleep studies where a physician wants to review a long term user's current sleep apnoea status.
That leads into a response to ChicagoGranny's comments where it is suggested that CPAP knocks out a person's natural defenses to apnoea. That is a highly inaccurate comment and frankly false scare tactics, which I respect are said in ingnorance. Why do I say this? Several reasons:
1.) Standard CPAP does not trigger breathing, or make you breath, it simply increases the atmospheric pressure inside the air passageway. This air pressure simply holds open the airway so that a person gets on with normal breathing. It is like sleeping in a specially sealed room where we have been able to increase the airpressure, that is all.
2.) The trigger to ensure that someone takes another good breath after an apnoea is based on the body reading it's blood oxygen and carbondioxide levels and responding when they are not as they should be. CPAP does not lessen the body's awareness, response, or response time.
3.) I never have to take special care when performing a diagnostic review study on a long term successful CPAP user, "just in case they never breath again" when a severe apnoea occurs. If anything it is the opposit. There is the suggestion that there will be a bit of "residual airway support" showing up on a night without CPAP because they have been a long term successful CPAP user.
So the comment that CPAP inhibits a person's natural defense to an apnoea is as silly as saying that using CPAP will mean that if I hold my breath when I am awake I might drop dead because my triggers for breathing have been eliminated.
That drive to breath, whether wake or asleep, is phenomenally powerful.

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Bill44133
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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by Bill44133 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:18 pm

Take 15 minutes to review this youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gie2dhqP2c

This video put the whole thing in perspective for me.

It should be required viewing for any one who is new.

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Re: Has Anyone Ever Succunbed To Apnea?

Post by TerrificSoporific » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:47 pm

Hi Bill, yes, it is a good video. I use it when training new technicians. Thank you for posting it.