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General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:20 am

Guest wrote:yes, that is true.

My point was: it does not matter, what SH makes out of it or shows - the devices (at least AirSense 10) themself simply do not report a length. At least to my current understanding.

========

i would expect that resmed merely flags the ten second spot where it declared the event
but does it post any data that says when it ended ?
or does sleepyhead look at the data to try go guess the start/stop and compute duration
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Guest on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:27 pm

I am confused. What exactly are you speaking about?

I asked about your 18 second hypopnea - not what you believe you see - I asked about the actual data! I know how sleepyhead works and displays hypopneas - I was only interested what ResScan (that is the software from ResMed - not the company or other stuff) shows for that very hypopnea - not another one - that one especially.

What your ASV does when you roll over is normal behavior for it - it is actually supposed to do exactly that. Why it does that can be seen in the minute ventilation graph - or precisely the red line (or whatever color you picked) which reads something like: targeted MV.

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Jay Aitchsee
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Jay Aitchsee on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:42 pm

So, I looked at my hypopneas in SH and ResScan. In SleepyHead, the durations ranged from 17 to 36 seconds. As guest noted, ResScan does not display or indicate duration. However, I suppose it is possible ResMed provides the duration as part of the detailed data exported. After all, they must compute it to see that it meets the 10 sec duration scoring criteria.
By examining ResScan reports, ResMed appears to flag apneas at the end of the event. Though not as easy to discern, it appears that hypopneas, likewise, are flagged at event end.

_________________
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Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: DreamWear Nasal Mask, P=7.0, EPR3, ResScan 5.3, SleepyHead 9.8, Windows 10, ZEO, CMS50F, Infrared Video

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Guest on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:47 pm

S9 is giving a length for hypopneas.

However - as stated - for the AirSense 10 I have never heard of anyone seeing something different than exactly 10 seconds in SH - which is a stron indication for: the AirSense 10 no longer cares for the length of a hypopnea.

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:55 pm

Guest wrote:I am confused. What exactly are you speaking about?

I asked about your 18 second hypopnea - not what you believe you see - I asked about the actual data! I know how sleepyhead works and displays hypopneas - I was only interested what ResScan (that is the software from ResMed - not the company or other stuff) shows for that very hypopnea - not another one - that one especially.

What your ASV does when you roll over is normal behavior for it - it is actually supposed to do exactly that. Why it does that can be seen in the minute ventilation graph - or precisely the red line (or whatever color you picked) which reads something like: targeted MV.

=======

the actual data as graphed shows nothing
i question how accurate resmeds hypops are

i have not run rescan yet

why is the ASV supposed to start blasting air when i am breathing normally and move to a position that would be less restricted wrt air flow?
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:56 pm

Guest wrote:S9 is giving a length for hypopneas.

However - as stated - for the AirSense 10 I have never heard of anyone seeing something different than exactly 10 seconds in SH - which is a stron indication for: the AirSense 10 no longer cares for the length of a hypopnea.

======

my s10 is an s9 with a new logo on the front still using s9 parts
so what do you think that version does ?
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Jay Aitchsee on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:38 pm

Guest wrote:S9 is giving a length for hypopneas.

Not necessarily, SH could be computing the duration based on flow.

Guest wrote:However - as stated - for the AirSense 10 I have never heard of anyone seeing something different than exactly 10 seconds in SH - which is a stron indication for: the AirSense 10 no longer cares for the length of a hypopnea.

Or, it could be a bug in SleepyHead. I believe Mark was still working on incorporating the Airsense models when he quit. Palerider might know.

_________________
Machine: S9 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: DreamWear Nasal Mask, P=7.0, EPR3, ResScan 5.3, SleepyHead 9.8, Windows 10, ZEO, CMS50F, Infrared Video

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Guest on Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:05 am

actually I was not guessing on the SH part - I was simply telling.
.. but there is a very funny comment in the code on the part where the hyopopneas from ResMed are "read".

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Jay Aitchsee on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:19 am

Interesting, Guest. You should have made it more clear from the start that you could read and understand the SleepyHead code.
From your comments, I take it that you 'know" the S9 and previous exported the duration of hypopneas, but you "think" ResMed no longer does for AirsSense models. Is that correct?

_________________
Machine: S9 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: DreamWear Nasal Mask, P=7.0, EPR3, ResScan 5.3, SleepyHead 9.8, Windows 10, ZEO, CMS50F, Infrared Video

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Guest on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:17 am

well, I wasn't aware that reading the code is a big deal - it's open source - anyone can read it and it's written in C++ - for coders that is basically like plain english (doesn't matter what you do or where you come from - everyone understands C at least to the level of understanding what it does or is meant to do)

I have seen a length (other than 10 seconds) for hypopneas on different models from the ResMed S9 series. So I "believe" whatever SH is doing there is correct.
So far I have never seen a hypopnea on any model of the AirSense 10 series that was not exactly 10 seconds long. Or in other words: on the SD-card there was always a 0 (zero) after a hypopnea - which indicates the durates for any other event. (like in: I actually looked at the raw-data of 3 to 5 AirSense 10 SD-Cards)
BTW: it is the same for RERAs - where it is quite unusual to last exactly 10 seconds!

Since ResScan is not showing the duration for RERAs or hypopneas for the AirSense 10 series at all, it lead me to believe that ResMed does no longer care for the duration (or does not trust its algorithm enough).

They do not respond to "hypopneas" anyway - so why bother? - made perfect sense to me. (again: AirSense 10 - I do not know and do not care how the S9 reacts)
(although calling it 'just' hypopnea itself is more like blasphemy - they only score obstructive hypopneas - which is like a very little percentage of the hypopneas - at least for me of course YMMV)

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Jay Aitchsee on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:59 am

Guest, thanks for that.
I do question this comment, however.
Guest wrote:Since ResScan is not showing the duration for RERAs or hypopneas for the AirSense 10 series at all, it lead me to believe that ResMed does no longer care for the duration (or does not trust its algorithm enough).

To the best of my knowledge, ResScan does not show the duration of hypopneas for the S9, either. So there has been no change in ResScan reporting of hypopneas with the AirsSense models.

_________________
Machine: S9 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: DreamWear Nasal Mask, P=7.0, EPR3, ResScan 5.3, SleepyHead 9.8, Windows 10, ZEO, CMS50F, Infrared Video

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Guest on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:30 am

thanks for the hint regarding the S9 and ResScan.

I am really biased towards / against ResMed - but they simply suck at presenting data or storing it in the first place.
However they do achieve great treatment - but if your problem is not only defined by flowlimitations you are stuck with having the greatest AHI (in their terms of events - which is virtually nothing!) but not feeling it.

Just one night on a different machine (even philips would be enough in most cases) would make the event chart explode. ... at least they have the For-Her - it's a start in the right direction - or the first step away from: flowlimitations are everything that matters + take the needed pressure and put a couple cmH2O on top of that and push it out to the patient.

xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:46 am

Guest wrote:actually I was not guessing on the SH part - I was simply telling.
.. but there is a very funny comment in the code on the part where the hyopopneas from ResMed are "read".


=======

where can one get teh code to match their version
is it python or c++ or other

i see imgur pix with colors that mine does not show
so something is different for sure
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
Posts: 4535
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:48 am

Guest wrote:well, I wasn't aware that reading the code is a big deal - it's open source - anyone can read it and it's written in C++ - for coders that is basically like plain english (doesn't matter what you do or where you come from - everyone understands C at least to the level of understanding what it does or is meant to do)

I have seen a length (other than 10 seconds) for hypopneas on different models from the ResMed S9 series. So I "believe" whatever SH is doing there is correct.
So far I have never seen a hypopnea on any model of the AirSense 10 series that was not exactly 10 seconds long. Or in other words: on the SD-card there was always a 0 (zero) after a hypopnea - which indicates the durates for any other event. (like in: I actually looked at the raw-data of 3 to 5 AirSense 10 SD-Cards)
BTW: it is the same for RERAs - where it is quite unusual to last exactly 10 seconds!

Since ResScan is not showing the duration for RERAs or hypopneas for the AirSense 10 series at all, it lead me to believe that ResMed does no longer care for the duration (or does not trust its algorithm enough).

They do not respond to "hypopneas" anyway - so why bother? - made perfect sense to me. (again: AirSense 10 - I do not know and do not care how the S9 reacts)
(although calling it 'just' hypopnea itself is more like blasphemy - they only score obstructive hypopneas - which is like a very little percentage of the hypopneas - at least for me of course YMMV)


============

really?

i thought the ASV would increase pressure up to epapmax to help
also ipapmax would be used when they happen
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
Posts: 4535
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:50 am

Guest wrote:thanks for the hint regarding the S9 and ResScan.

I am really biased towards / against ResMed - but they simply suck at presenting data or storing it in the first place.
However they do achieve great treatment - but if your problem is not only defined by flowlimitations you are stuck with having the greatest AHI (in their terms of events - which is virtually nothing!) but not feeling it.

Just one night on a different machine (even philips would be enough in most cases) would make the event chart explode. ... at least they have the For-Her - it's a start in the right direction - or the first step away from: flowlimitations are everything that matters + take the needed pressure and put a couple cmH2O on top of that and push it out to the patient.

===========

flow limitations matter ????????

full apnea matters
long hypops matter

how does FL matter at all ?
RR and Vt will change to keep spo2 stable in spite of FL
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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