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General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
Lucyhere
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Lucyhere on Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:04 pm

.
[quote="xxyzx"]the only idiot is you[quote]


Sure, so many members are wrong; only you are 'right'!

You must have mirrors all around your house. Keep looking in them. :roll:
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Airfit P10

*Read between the lines and then decide who to take advice from.

xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:17 pm

Lucyhere wrote:.
xxyzx wrote:the only idiot is you


Sure, so many members are wrong; only you are 'right'!

You must have mirrors all around your house. Keep looking in them. :roll:

=======

logical fallacy
truth does not get voted on

i use facts and logic
you use personal insults

clearly i am right
if you had anything useful to say you would post facts instead of insults
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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Jay Aitchsee
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Jay Aitchsee on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:19 pm

xxyzx wrote:The brain only knows there is a problem breathing when there actually IS a problem breathing

over a wide range the body automatically adjusts for congestion or other blockage by increasing RR and then Vt

mere hypops without desats would not disturb sleep
and yes all those other things the brain can be aware of and will disturb sleep or wake you up

didnt AASM just add desats to the definition of hypop to account for that being necessary to be included in AHI
hypops alone are not a problem unless they cause desats


As pointed out in one of your other threads, the AASM doesn't require a desat to score an hypopnea. A 30% reduction accompanied by an arousal will also qualify, "There is a ≥3% oxygen desaturation from pre-event baseline and/or the event is associated with an arousal", emphasis added.
And isn't an hypopnea with an arousal a special case of RERA, of which you are fond of mentioning in your discussions of the importance of RDI?
I would think an arousal, with or without a desat, might qualify as a sleep disturbance. Certainly it represents a change is sleep stage.

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xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:03 pm

Jay Aitchsee wrote:
xxyzx wrote:The brain only knows there is a problem breathing when there actually IS a problem breathing

over a wide range the body automatically adjusts for congestion or other blockage by increasing RR and then Vt

mere hypops without desats would not disturb sleep
and yes all those other things the brain can be aware of and will disturb sleep or wake you up

didnt AASM just add desats to the definition of hypop to account for that being necessary to be included in AHI
hypops alone are not a problem unless they cause desats


As pointed out in one of your other threads, the AASM doesn't require a desat to score an hypopnea. A 30% reduction accompanied by an arousal will also qualify, "There is a ≥3% oxygen desaturation from pre-event baseline and/or the event is associated with an arousal", emphasis added.
And isn't an hypopnea with an arousal a special case of RERA, of which you are fond of mentioning in your discussions of the importance of RDI?
I would think an arousal, with or without a desat, might qualify as a sleep disturbance. Certainly it represents a change is sleep stage.

==========

yall need to get your story straight
tasmart in another thread says they do require desats

as i posted in another thread from the nih study of AASM definitions
they have THREE defiinitions for hypop
and at least two of them do require desats
but the xpaps dont use desats and give you an AHI for the night that is more misleading

there are no arousals on hypops without the desat are there ?

arousals are disturbances which is why RDI is better than AHI as a metric

the question is what causes arousals and there is no evidence that hypop without desat does that
if there is a partial blockage the body increases RR and Vt normally without any arousal
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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TASmart
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby TASmart on Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:12 pm

No I did not ost that desaturations are required. In fact, I posted the latest iteration which said that it was either or.

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xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:26 pm

TASmart wrote:No I did not ost that desaturations are required. In fact, I posted the latest iteration which said that it was either or.

========

if you say so
i recall your post saying desats were added

i posted the AASM standard and there are THREE of them
at least two of them do require desats
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

TedVPAP
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby TedVPAP on Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:27 pm

xxyzx wrote:
TASmart wrote:Because when the body senses difficulty in breathing the brain changes to a lighter or non-sleep state. Also, memory consolidation occurs mainly in the deeper sleep states. Since most rejuvenation of the brain occurs during stage 3/4 and REM sleep. being constantly roused from those deeper states to lesser states prevents the brain from fully rejuvenating and consolidating memory.

=======

does it really sense any difficulty on short hypops ?
how is that worse than congestion when
body breathes normally
just increases RR or Vt to get the right spo2 levels


Based on this logic, a person with a cold will sleep just as well - which of course we know is not true.

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Use data to maximize your xPAP treatment:
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby zoocrewphoto on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:57 am

xxyzx wrote:you need to cite your sources for that illogical belief that non desat hypops are causing disturbances



Why would anybody need to cite their sources when you never do? You won't prove a source when we ask you. You have never given us ANY reason to believe you are credible. You are just another anonymous person on the internet. You can claim all you want about how smart you or, or your job, or your education, but without a real name or proof, nobody has any reason to believe that any of it is true.

You won't even post data from your machine. We don't even know if you actually have a machine, or if this is all talk.

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Who would have thought it would be this challenging to sleep and breathe at the same time?

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Guest on Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:28 am

xxyzx wrote:
cliffspab wrote:Not sure if anyone told you yet, but Redmed misreports all hypopneas as 10 seconds on Sleepyhead. It's a bug, and they're probably longer.

=======

False

i have seen resmed hypops that were listed as longer
last report had one at 18 seconds but most were ten

the problem is that the 10 second ones do not seem to be hypops at all
as there is no confirmation on any of the graphs to indicate that happened


That is really interesting. Where does this 18 second long hypopnea come from? ResScan or SH?

My understanding so far, which is purely based on the AirSense 10 series, is: ResMed does not give a length at all for hypopneas or RERAs - it is just a flag without any time attached to it. As the S9 seems to report for hypopneas the length over 10 seconds, SH adds automatically 10 seconds for every hypopnea.
If you look at the very same data in ResScan there is no length for hypopneas and RERAs.

If you really had a hypopnea (I am NOT disputing the fact - I mean: if SH didn't got that wrong) with a value of "8" attached to it, it would be really interesting to see what ResScan makes out of it.

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Jay Aitchsee
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Jay Aitchsee on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:50 am

Guest wrote:My understanding so far, which is purely based on the AirSense 10 series, is: ResMed does not give a length at all for hypopneas or RERAs - it is just a flag without any time attached to it. As the S9 seems to report for hypopneas the length over 10 seconds, SH adds automatically 10 seconds for every hypopnea.If you look at the very same data in ResScan there is no length for hypopneas and RERAs.


Interesting observation, Guest. I believe you are correct that ResMed and ResScan do not display duration of Hypopneas, at least not for my S9 and previous S8. SleepyHead does appear to measure and report the duration. If you hover the cursor over an event in SleepyHead, it will display the duration of the event by color shading. I don't have many hypopneas, but for those that I have the color shading seems to match the decline in flow and equals the duration as reported by SleepyHead.
SleepyHead indeed has the ability to measure these events as evidenced its ability to flag and report user defined criteria (see SH preferences), but I can't absolutely attest to its accuracy, only that it looks accurate.

_________________
Machine: S9 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine
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Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: DreamWear Nasal Mask, P=7.0, EPR3, ResScan 5.3, SleepyHead 9.8, Windows 10, ZEO, CMS50F, Infrared Video

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Guest on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:24 am

yes, that is true.

My point was: it does not matter, what SH makes out of it or shows - the devices (at least AirSense 10) themself simply do not report a length. At least to my current understanding.

xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:08 am

TedVPAP wrote:
xxyzx wrote:
TASmart wrote:Because when the body senses difficulty in breathing the brain changes to a lighter or non-sleep state. Also, memory consolidation occurs mainly in the deeper sleep states. Since most rejuvenation of the brain occurs during stage 3/4 and REM sleep. being constantly roused from those deeper states to lesser states prevents the brain from fully rejuvenating and consolidating memory.

=======

does it really sense any difficulty on short hypops ?
how is that worse than congestion when
body breathes normally
just increases RR or Vt to get the right spo2 levels


Based on this logic, a person with a cold will sleep just as well - which of course we know is not true.

===========

a person with a cold is SICK
that will mess up sleep

a person with a cold may have severe congestion and have to mouth breathe
that is totally different

there is a wide range of normal where mere congestion has NO EFFECT at all

i get random idiopathic congestion often
usually just before bed time
if i sleep on my side it clears in a few minutes
but i have no problem breathing when the other nostril is open even if one is closed
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:10 am

zoocrewphoto wrote:
xxyzx wrote:you need to cite your sources for that illogical belief that non desat hypops are causing disturbances



Why would anybody need to cite their sources when you never do? You won't prove a source when we ask you. You have never given us ANY reason to believe you are credible. You are just another anonymous person on the internet. You can claim all you want about how smart you or, or your job, or your education, but without a real name or proof, nobody has any reason to believe that any of it is true.

You won't even post data from your machine. We don't even know if you actually have a machine, or if this is all talk.

==========

so i have to cite sources but you dont ?

not the way things work in america

i give you facts which you can verify
i post the truth
you can deny it if you choose to be a fool

i have nothing to prove to you
the truth speaks for itself even if you wont listen

and exactly how will posting my data enlighten you at all in any way ?
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:16 am

Guest wrote:
xxyzx wrote:
cliffspab wrote:Not sure if anyone told you yet, but Redmed misreports all hypopneas as 10 seconds on Sleepyhead. It's a bug, and they're probably longer.

=======

False

i have seen resmed hypops that were listed as longer
last report had one at 18 seconds but most were ten

the problem is that the 10 second ones do not seem to be hypops at all
as there is no confirmation on any of the graphs to indicate that happened

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That is really interesting. Where does this 18 second long hypopnea come from? ResScan or SH?

My understanding so far, which is purely based on the AirSense 10 series, is: ResMed does not give a length at all for hypopneas or RERAs - it is just a flag without any time attached to it. As the S9 seems to report for hypopneas the length over 10 seconds, SH adds automatically 10 seconds for every hypopnea.
If you look at the very same data in ResScan there is no length for hypopneas and RERAs.

If you really had a hypopnea (I am NOT disputing the fact - I mean: if SH didn't got that wrong) with a value of "8" attached to it, it would be really interesting to see what ResScan makes out of it.

========

resmed has teh data
but does not tell us anything but AHI

sleepyhead graphs the data
that graph shows the time with each alleged hypop

where sleepy head got it is a mystery

i have rescan but have to figure out how to get it working on my pc
their manual was not exactly user friendly for our purposes even if good for a sleep lab or doctor

that is a good point to see what rescan says
and it is on my list to do
along with way too many other things

i question how many of the hypops are real
i can be quite aware of my breathing and not having any problems
roll from back to side and the ASV will always start pushing max pressure at me

i do breathe very easy and shallow when i am asleep and i think at times they think i have stopped even though i am breathing just fine and go into backup mode
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:19 am

Jay Aitchsee wrote:
Guest wrote:My understanding so far, which is purely based on the AirSense 10 series, is: ResMed does not give a length at all for hypopneas or RERAs - it is just a flag without any time attached to it. As the S9 seems to report for hypopneas the length over 10 seconds, SH adds automatically 10 seconds for every hypopnea.If you look at the very same data in ResScan there is no length for hypopneas and RERAs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interesting observation, Guest. I believe you are correct that ResMed and ResScan do not display duration of Hypopneas, at least not for my S9 and previous S8. SleepyHead does appear to measure and report the duration. If you hover the cursor over an event in SleepyHead, it will display the duration of the event by color shading. I don't have many hypopneas, but for those that I have the color shading seems to match the decline in flow and equals the duration as reported by SleepyHead.
SleepyHead indeed has the ability to measure these events as evidenced its ability to flag and report user defined criteria (see SH preferences), but I can't absolutely attest to its accuracy, only that it looks accurate.

========

when i highlight the hypop region sleepyhead puts a number on the screen next to it

i do not recall any color shading but will carefully look for that
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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