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xxyzx
 
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sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:27 pm

using this data which would be roughly what i observe with my numbers
observations and questions below
-------------------------------------------
NOTE THE NUMBERS LINE UP WHEN I HIT EDIT
MAYBE THEY WILL LINE UP IF YOU DO A REPLY

sleep breathing vs wake breathing - typical numbers

HR/PR RR spO2 Vt
sleep 40 8 91 very small 0.3L
relaxed 50 10 93 lower
lying 60 11 94 average
sitting 70 12 95 average 1.5
standing 80 12 97 average
walking 90 12 98 average
jogging 110+ 15 99 large
running 130+ + 15 99 very deep 4.0+

-------------------------------------------

depending on the typical sp02 the body is trying to achieve, based on what the cells need for a level of activity --
the body oxygen needs are met with several variables :
heart rate pumping blood with oxygen faster/slower
RR moving oxygen through lungs faster/slower
Vt the depth to which the RR fills the lungs more/less

note during the very small Vt the resmed does NOT declare any events and
we can see from the flow graphs that in/exhale has continued and there was not a hypop
there is just less need for oxygen when the body is sleeping soundly

QUESTIONS
now if there were hypops would not the RR go UP
would not the PR go up to keep trying to keep teh spo2 level up with less oxygen remaining in the lungs for use if desats occur
would not the Vt go up some depending on how much the limitation on flow was
and if not Vt increased then wouldnt RR and PR go WAY up ?

if not then why is sleep breathing different and HOW is it different

---

if the body has a range of automatic adjustments before it is stressed then why would hypops cause arousals unless they got into the desat range.
it woudl just normaly adjust RR PR and Vt to meet needed spo2
eg a mere ten second hypop should not disturb sleep as there is a one minute supply of O2 in the lungs and normal RR PR would keep the spo2 stable

QUESTION
if not then please explain why/how a minimal hypop does disturb sleep
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby TASmart on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:17 pm

Because when the body senses difficulty in breathing the brain changes to a lighter or non-sleep state. Also, memory consolidation occurs mainly in the deeper sleep states. Since most rejuvenation of the brain occurs during stage 3/4 and REM sleep. being constantly roused from those deeper states to lesser states prevents the brain from fully rejuvenating and consolidating memory.

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xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:34 pm

TASmart wrote:Because when the body senses difficulty in breathing the brain changes to a lighter or non-sleep state. Also, memory consolidation occurs mainly in the deeper sleep states. Since most rejuvenation of the brain occurs during stage 3/4 and REM sleep. being constantly roused from those deeper states to lesser states prevents the brain from fully rejuvenating and consolidating memory.

=======

does it really sense any difficulty on short hypops ?
how is that worse than congestion when
body breathes normally
just increases RR or Vt to get the right spo2 levels
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby zoocrewphoto on Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:10 pm

xxyzx wrote:
TASmart wrote:Because when the body senses difficulty in breathing the brain changes to a lighter or non-sleep state. Also, memory consolidation occurs mainly in the deeper sleep states. Since most rejuvenation of the brain occurs during stage 3/4 and REM sleep. being constantly roused from those deeper states to lesser states prevents the brain from fully rejuvenating and consolidating memory.

=======

does it really sense any difficulty on short hypops ?
how is that worse than congestion when
body breathes normally
just increases RR or Vt to get the right spo2 levels



Have you ever had a child? Did you sleep lightly when you were afraid they were sick? Have a spouse who was ill, and you slept lightly to keep an eye on them? Ever have a scare in the middle of the night, and you have trouble getting back to sleep? Ever know that you are going to have a bad night of sleep, so you you stay up later, avoiding that sleep?

The brain KNOWS that there is a problem breathing. Even if it doesn't sense each event instantly, it is aware of the history and the NEED to sleep lightly to prevent such events from happening. It is a matter of self preservation. If deep sleep is dangerous, the brain will try to prevent it.

As a child, I was a deep sleeper. I could sleep though thunder storms. I never heard the tree that fell during a storm. I could sleep through alarm clocks. As an adult with sleep apnea, I became a light sleeper. My brain preventing me from long events. Now, I can't even sleep through a mild hiss from my mask. I maintain an almost zero leak line because any hiss wakes me up, and I must fix it.



You may think we can't do this in our sleep, but the brain is very smart and still thinking as we sleep. The night after my sleep study (split night with AWESOME titration), I had a dream that I had to wait 6 months to get a cpap machine, and I was angry. I wanted it now. My brain, while asleep, KNEW that the cpap machine in titration was WHY I had a great night of sleep. And it wanted it AGAIN.

Many people, when they start cpap therapy, find that they sleep deeper after successful therapy, and some of them need to make adjustments because they need more pressure when actually sleeping deeply. They also tend to feel worse than pre-cpap if they skip a night. Why? Because they stopped being hyper vigilant while sleeping. Their defense mechanisms that they built up over the years had relaxed, trusting the machine to take care of the problem.

Without a cpap machine, I was averaging at least one event per minute, ALL night long. Probably closer to two, if we had done a full night diagnosis. That's a lot of stress, all night long. No restful sleep.

Take a look at my graphs from my sleep study. You can see that I never dropped into deep sleep or REM without cpap. Then, with cpap, I have pretty decent sleep cycles. Also, take a look at my oxygen saturation. My events during the titration were 127 hypopneas and 71 apneas (0 centrals). Almost double the hypopneas yet my oxygen desats are fairly consistent.

Image

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby TASmart on Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:14 pm

xxyzx wrote:
TASmart wrote:Because when the body senses difficulty in breathing the brain changes to a lighter or non-sleep state. Also, memory consolidation occurs mainly in the deeper sleep states. Since most rejuvenation of the brain occurs during stage 3/4 and REM sleep. being constantly roused from those deeper states to lesser states prevents the brain from fully rejuvenating and consolidating memory.

=======

does it really sense any difficulty on short hypops ?
how is that worse than congestion when
body breathes normally
just increases RR or Vt to get the right spo2 levels


You are making an assumption that sleep stages and transitions and arousals are totally driven by blood CO2 ( which is really what the body uses for normal breathing, not O2 levels). But there are other factors that cause sleep arousals, and having restricted breathing is one of them.

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Your mileage may vary
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Consult with your own physician as people very

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xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:49 am

zoocrewphoto wrote:
xxyzx wrote:
TASmart wrote:Because when the body senses difficulty in breathing the brain changes to a lighter or non-sleep state. Also, memory consolidation occurs mainly in the deeper sleep states. Since most rejuvenation of the brain occurs during stage 3/4 and REM sleep. being constantly roused from those deeper states to lesser states prevents the brain from fully rejuvenating and consolidating memory.

=======

does it really sense any difficulty on short hypops ?
how is that worse than congestion when
body breathes normally
just increases RR or Vt to get the right spo2 levels

---------------------------------------

Have you ever had a child? Did you sleep lightly when you were afraid they were sick? Have a spouse who was ill, and you slept lightly to keep an eye on them? Ever have a scare in the middle of the night, and you have trouble getting back to sleep? Ever know that you are going to have a bad night of sleep, so you you stay up later, avoiding that sleep?

The brain KNOWS that there is a problem breathing. Even if it doesn't sense each event instantly, it is aware of the history and the NEED to sleep lightly to prevent such events from happening. It is a matter of self preservation. If deep sleep is dangerous, the brain will try to prevent it.

As a child, I was a deep sleeper. I could sleep though thunder storms. I never heard the tree that fell during a storm. I could sleep through alarm clocks. As an adult with sleep apnea, I became a light sleeper. My brain preventing me from long events. Now, I can't even sleep through a mild hiss from my mask. I maintain an almost zero leak line because any hiss wakes me up, and I must fix it.

You may think we can't do this in our sleep, but the brain is very smart and still thinking as we sleep. The night after my sleep study (split night with AWESOME titration), I had a dream that I had to wait 6 months to get a cpap machine, and I was angry. I wanted it now. My brain, while asleep, KNEW that the cpap machine in titration was WHY I had a great night of sleep. And it wanted it AGAIN.

Many people, when they start cpap therapy, find that they sleep deeper after successful therapy, and some of them need to make adjustments because they need more pressure when actually sleeping deeply. They also tend to feel worse than pre-cpap if they skip a night. Why? Because they stopped being hyper vigilant while sleeping. Their defense mechanisms that they built up over the years had relaxed, trusting the machine to take care of the problem.

Without a cpap machine, I was averaging at least one event per minute, ALL night long. Probably closer to two, if we had done a full night diagnosis. That's a lot of stress, all night long. No restful sleep.

Take a look at my graphs from my sleep study. You can see that I never dropped into deep sleep or REM without cpap. Then, with cpap, I have pretty decent sleep cycles. Also, take a look at my oxygen saturation. My events during the titration were 127 hypopneas and 71 apneas (0 centrals). Almost double the hypopneas yet my oxygen desats are fairly consistent.

Image

====================


the brain only knows there is a problem breathing when there actually IS a problem breathing

over a wide range the body automatically adjusts for congestion or other blockage by increasing RR and then Vt

mere hypops without desats would not disturb sleep
and yes all those other things the brain can be aware of and will disturb sleep or wake you up

didnt AASM just add desats to the definition of hypop to account for that being necessary to be included in AHI
hypops alone are not a problem unless they cause desats
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:52 am

TASmart wrote:
xxyzx wrote:
TASmart wrote:Because when the body senses difficulty in breathing the brain changes to a lighter or non-sleep state. Also, memory consolidation occurs mainly in the deeper sleep states. Since most rejuvenation of the brain occurs during stage 3/4 and REM sleep. being constantly roused from those deeper states to lesser states prevents the brain from fully rejuvenating and consolidating memory.

=======

does it really sense any difficulty on short hypops ?
how is that worse than congestion when
body breathes normally
just increases RR or Vt to get the right spo2 levels


You are making an assumption that sleep stages and transitions and arousals are totally driven by blood CO2 ( which is really what the body uses for normal breathing, not O2 levels). But there are other factors that cause sleep arousals, and having restricted breathing is one of them.

=======

i had asked a question about whether sleep breathing was different
no answers that would contradict what i am saying here

i agree that restricted breathing will not trigger an arousal
the normal feedback mechanisms will adjust RR BPR Vt to keep spo2 stable via the surrogate sleep PaCO2 level
and when there is a desat then there is an arousal or disturbance
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Pugsy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:56 am

xxyzx wrote:didnt AASM just add desats to the definition of hypop to account for that being necessary to be included in AHI


No they didn't "just add" the desats to the definition of hyponea....it's been there for at least as long as I have been on cpap.

xxyzx wrote:hypops alone are not a problem unless they cause desats


Again you spout this and it simply isn't true. There are other issues besides desats that impact sleep quality and how we feel or don't feel.
Just because you think that desats is the end all judge and jury for something being important or not doesn't make it so.

I would ask you to cite your references besides "some doctors" or 3rd party hearsay but I know that won't happen so I won't bother.

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby Pugsy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:57 am

xxyzx wrote:no answers that would contradict what i am saying here


Doesn't mean that you are right. Just means someone didn't want to waste their time trying to understand the gibberish you wrote and respond because it wasn't worth the effort.

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby cliffspab on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:58 am

Not sure if anyone told you yet, but Redmed misreports all hypopneas as 10 seconds on Sleepyhead. It's a bug, and they're probably longer.

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby jsielke on Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:34 am

Pugsy wrote:
xxyzx wrote:didnt AASM just add desats to the definition of hypop to account for that being necessary to be included in AHI


No they didn't "just add" the desats to the definition of hyponea....it's been there for at least as long as I have been on cpap.

xxyzx wrote:hypops alone are not a problem unless they cause desats


Again you spout this and it simply isn't true. There are other issues besides desats that impact sleep quality and how we feel or don't feel.
Just because you think that desats is the end all judge and jury for something being important or not doesn't make it so.

I would ask you to cite your references besides "some doctors" or 3rd party hearsay but I know that won't happen so I won't bother.


Another case for banning this idiot. Someone who doesn't know any better take him seriously. I know "moderation" brings screams of "abridging individual rights, etc , but really, this clown has gone from being the village idiot, to a serious threat.

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:37 pm

Pugsy wrote:
xxyzx wrote:didnt AASM just add desats to the definition of hypop to account for that being necessary to be included in AHI


No they didn't "just add" the desats to the definition of hyponea....it's been there for at least as long as I have been on cpap.

xxyzx wrote:hypops alone are not a problem unless they cause desats


Again you spout this and it simply isn't true. There are other issues besides desats that impact sleep quality and how we feel or don't feel.
Just because you think that desats is the end all judge and jury for something being important or not doesn't make it so.

I would ask you to cite your references besides "some doctors" or 3rd party hearsay but I know that won't happen so I won't bother.

========

checking teh nih reports it was just a few years ago that they added desats


many things impact sleep quality
but mere hypops are not among them

you need to cite your sources for that illogical belief that non desat hypops are causing disturbances

i use logic and medical papers
but i am not your reference librarian
and my ignoring your demands to do your research does not make the truth i post wrong at all

you need to back up your illogical claims
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:39 pm

Pugsy wrote:
xxyzx wrote:no answers that would contradict what i am saying here


Doesn't mean that you are right. Just means someone didn't want to waste their time trying to understand the gibberish you wrote and respond because it wasn't worth the effort.

====

i AM right

and what you say does not mean i am wrong

i spout logical conclusions based on best medical information i ahve found

you spout erroneous opinons based on what you mistakenly ASSumed is true
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:40 pm

cliffspab wrote:Not sure if anyone told you yet, but Redmed misreports all hypopneas as 10 seconds on Sleepyhead. It's a bug, and they're probably longer.

=======

False

i have seen resmed hypops that were listed as longer
last report had one at 18 seconds but most were ten

the problem is that the 10 second ones do not seem to be hypops at all
as there is no confirmation on any of the graphs to indicate that happened
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
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Re: sleep vs wake breathing and effect of hypops ? question

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:41 pm

jsielke wrote:
Pugsy wrote:
xxyzx wrote:didnt AASM just add desats to the definition of hypop to account for that being necessary to be included in AHI


No they didn't "just add" the desats to the definition of hyponea....it's been there for at least as long as I have been on cpap.

xxyzx wrote:hypops alone are not a problem unless they cause desats


Again you spout this and it simply isn't true. There are other issues besides desats that impact sleep quality and how we feel or don't feel.
Just because you think that desats is the end all judge and jury for something being important or not doesn't make it so.

I would ask you to cite your references besides "some doctors" or 3rd party hearsay but I know that won't happen so I won't bother.


Another case for banning this idiot. Someone who doesn't know any better take him seriously. I know "moderation" brings screams of "abridging individual rights, etc , but really, this clown has gone from being the village idiot, to a serious threat.

==========

the only idiot is you

i post the truth

you make personal insults because you have nothing to say of value

if you had anything worth posting you would not post personal attacks but would post some true facts
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

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