Quantcast

Bookmark and Share
General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
User avatar
zoocrewphoto
 
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:34 pm
Location: Seatac, WA
Gender: Female

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby zoocrewphoto on Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:03 pm

xxyzx wrote:really ?

no desats then no awakening

the lung has a minute of reserve oxygen
you should not feel a hypop of 10-15 seconds at all


There is a difference between awakening (And remembering it) and arousals (brain becoming more active).

Arousals are one way the brain prevents the desats. That's the whole reason it trashes our sleep, and not just our oxygen. My oxygen only went below 90% for 13% of my sleep study, yet I had a 79 ahi (89 rdi). During that time, I never went into deep sleep or REM. My sleep was too trashed. HAd I done a full night sleep study, I probably would have been much higher with my ahi. But my oxygen desats are pretty mild, with the worst being 84% and very short.

_________________
Machine: S9 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: pressure range 11-17, also using Oracle mask
Who would have thought it would be this challenging to sleep and breathe at the same time?

xxyzx
 
Posts: 4557
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby xxyzx on Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:28 pm

zoocrewphoto wrote:
xxyzx wrote:really ?

no desats then no awakening

the lung has a minute of reserve oxygen
you should not feel a hypop of 10-15 seconds at all


There is a difference between awakening (And remembering it) and arousals (brain becoming more active).

Arousals are one way the brain prevents the desats. That's the whole reason it trashes our sleep, and not just our oxygen. My oxygen only went below 90% for 13% of my sleep study, yet I had a 79 ahi (89 rdi). During that time, I never went into deep sleep or REM. My sleep was too trashed. HAd I done a full night sleep study, I probably would have been much higher with my ahi. But my oxygen desats are pretty mild, with the worst being 84% and very short.

================

no desat to prevent if hypop only ten seconds as a minute of oxygen reserve still in lungs


normal breathing feedback loops on RR PR and Vt would handle it without arousal

PR would increase but no arousal should happen
RR might increase or Vt might increase if hypop went longer

or is sleep breathing different somehow ???

see data and questions i posed here
viewtopic/t157313/sleep-vs-wake-breathing-and-effect-of-hypops--question.html
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

User avatar
zoocrewphoto
 
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:34 pm
Location: Seatac, WA
Gender: Female

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby zoocrewphoto on Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:55 pm

xxyzx wrote:
zoocrewphoto wrote:
xxyzx wrote:

no desat to prevent if hypop only ten seconds as a minute of oxygen reserve still in lungs

The definition of a hypopnea includes oxygen desaturation.

"Hypopnea is related to sleep apnea and is a part of the same family of sleep disorders. In hypopnea, there is a decrease of airflow for at least 10 seconds in respirations, a 30-percent reduction in ventilation, and a decrease in oxygen saturation. "

If the event was scored in a sleep study as a hypopnea, then, yes, it did have a desat.

I don't know what to tell you about the oxygen in your lungs. I can tell you that MY lungs do not have the full amount of air that it should. I have never scored well on breathing tests. Nowhere near normal lung capacity. My airflow is already reduced to narrow airway.

_________________
Machine: S9 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: pressure range 11-17, also using Oracle mask
Who would have thought it would be this challenging to sleep and breathe at the same time?

User avatar
TASmart
 
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:23 pm
Location: Eugene, OR
Gender: Male

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby TASmart on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:12 pm

Hypopneas under the latest definition of the American Academy of Sleep MEdicine do not necessarily require a desaturation to be included. Events more than 10 seconds that cause an arousal in sleep state also qualify.

_________________
Machine Mask 
All posts reflect my own opinion based on my experience and reading.
Your mileage may vary
Past performance is no guarantee of future results
Consult with your own physician as people very

Beware XXYZX - He is not as knowledgeable as he thinks he.

xxyzx
 
Posts: 4557
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby xxyzx on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:37 pm

zoocrewphoto wrote:
xxyzx wrote:
zoocrewphoto wrote:
xxyzx wrote:

no desat to prevent if hypop only ten seconds as a minute of oxygen reserve still in lungs

The definition of a hypopnea includes oxygen desaturation.

"Hypopnea is related to sleep apnea and is a part of the same family of sleep disorders. In hypopnea, there is a decrease of airflow for at least 10 seconds in respirations, a 30-percent reduction in ventilation, and a decrease in oxygen saturation. "

If the event was scored in a sleep study as a hypopnea, then, yes, it did have a desat.

I don't know what to tell you about the oxygen in your lungs. I can tell you that MY lungs do not have the full amount of air that it should. I have never scored well on breathing tests. Nowhere near normal lung capacity. My airflow is already reduced to narrow airway.

======

one defintion of hypop includes desats

most xpaps dont care about desats because they dont measure them
they declare hypops at ten seconds no matter what

the question is matching what xpaps report with actual problems

with the desat there is definitely a problem
without the desat i dont see any problem even with high AHI based on hypops

your lungs may not be average
most lungs contain a reservoir of oxygen
average is a minute worth
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
Posts: 4557
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby xxyzx on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:38 pm

TASmart wrote:Hypopneas under the latest definition of the American Academy of Sleep MEdicine do not necessarily require a desaturation to be included. Events more than 10 seconds that cause an arousal in sleep state also qualify.

======

without a desat would there ever be an arousal from hypop alone?
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

TedVPAP
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:29 am
Gender: Male

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby TedVPAP on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:50 pm

sleep_apnea_suffer wrote:I am confused at hell at the sleep report I have been given. I did a sleep test and it found out that I had mild apnea, with no OSA/Central or REARS. I still have hypnoea but don't have OSA anymore. The strange thing is that the conclusion says that I have mild OSA. Why are these people who interpret these home sleep tests, mix the two up together(Hypopnea and OSAs), when are not the same thing. One is partial obstruction the other one is fully obstruction. Should I go for another test? As in Inlab sleep test?


Since this guest post makes no sense and has made no attempt to clarify/correct, I think it is best if it is ignored until the OP corrects the obvious mistakes in sentence 2, 3, 5.
I am not trying to be a PITA but when people pose questions which obviously displays confusion (or are trolls), I do not think it is best to give advice until the confusion has been resolved. But that is just my pet peeve.

_________________
Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Ultimate Chin Strap, Auto CPAP 17-20
Use data to maximize your xPAP treatment:
how to see your data https://sleep.tnet.com/resources/sleepyhead
how to present your data https://sleep.tnet.com/resources/sleepyhead/shorganize
how to post your data https://sleep.tnet.com/reference/tips/imgur

xxyzx
 
Posts: 4557
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby xxyzx on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:59 pm

TedVPAP wrote:
sleep_apnea_suffer wrote:I am confused at hell at the sleep report I have been given. I did a sleep test and it found out that I had mild apnea, with no OSA/Central or REARS. I still have hypnoea but don't have OSA anymore. The strange thing is that the conclusion says that I have mild OSA. Why are these people who interpret these home sleep tests, mix the two up together(Hypopnea and OSAs), when are not the same thing. One is partial obstruction the other one is fully obstruction. Should I go for another test? As in Inlab sleep test?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since this guest post makes no sense and has made no attempt to clarify/correct, I think it is best if it is ignored until the OP corrects the obvious mistakes in sentence 2, 3, 5.
I am not trying to be a PITA but when people pose questions which obviously displays confusion (or are trolls), I do not think it is best to give advice until the confusion has been resolved. But that is just my pet peeve.

======

the post makes perfect sense
the problem is with real english vs sleep jargon

there is no confusion by the guest
the confusion is by the sleep industry using one term for two problems
he does NOT have OA
he does have hypops
he wants to know why they call that OSA when there is no apnea only hypops

the problem is AHI is used to diagnose OSA whether you have OA or not

the question makes sense
the use of AHI when there is no A is what is misleading
as is the diagnose of OSA when there is no OA
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

User avatar
TASmart
 
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:23 pm
Location: Eugene, OR
Gender: Male

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby TASmart on Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:09 pm

xxyzx wrote:
TASmart wrote:Hypopneas under the latest definition of the American Academy of Sleep MEdicine do not necessarily require a desaturation to be included. Events more than 10 seconds that cause an arousal in sleep state also qualify.

======

without a desat would there ever be an arousal from hypop alone?


yes. Why else would their newest definition specifically say that a hypopnea can be defined either as a desaturation or an arousal?

_________________
Machine Mask 
All posts reflect my own opinion based on my experience and reading.
Your mileage may vary
Past performance is no guarantee of future results
Consult with your own physician as people very

Beware XXYZX - He is not as knowledgeable as he thinks he.

User avatar
zoocrewphoto
 
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:34 pm
Location: Seatac, WA
Gender: Female

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby zoocrewphoto on Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:16 pm

xxyzx wrote:the confusion is by the sleep industry using one term for two problems
he does NOT have OA
he does have hypops
he wants to know why they call that OSA when there is no apnea only hypops

the problem is AHI is used to diagnose OSA whether you have OA or not

the question makes sense
the use of AHI when there is no A is what is misleading
as is the diagnose of OSA when there is no OA



It might make sense if you use the whole word - hypopnea.

A hypopnea is simply a partial apnea. A partial blockage of the airflow compared to a full blockage. Both are obstructive as the airway is physically limited, as opposed to a clear airway with no blockage. They are basically the same thing, only one is partial and one is complete.

_________________
Machine: S9 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: pressure range 11-17, also using Oracle mask
Who would have thought it would be this challenging to sleep and breathe at the same time?

TedVPAP
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:29 am
Gender: Male

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby TedVPAP on Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:31 pm

xxyzx wrote:
TedVPAP wrote:
sleep_apnea_suffer wrote:I am confused at hell at the sleep report I have been given. I did a sleep test and it found out that I had mild apnea, with no OSA/Central or REARS. I still have hypnoea but don't have OSA anymore. The strange thing is that the conclusion says that I have mild OSA. Why are these people who interpret these home sleep tests, mix the two up together(Hypopnea and OSAs), when are not the same thing. One is partial obstruction the other one is fully obstruction. Should I go for another test? As in Inlab sleep test?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since this guest post makes no sense and has made no attempt to clarify/correct, I think it is best if it is ignored until the OP corrects the obvious mistakes in sentence 2, 3, 5.
I am not trying to be a PITA but when people pose questions which obviously displays confusion (or are trolls), I do not think it is best to give advice until the confusion has been resolved. But that is just my pet peeve.

======

the post makes perfect sense
the problem is with real english vs sleep jargon

there is no confusion by the guest
the confusion is by the sleep industry using one term for two problems
he does NOT have OA
he does have hypops
he wants to know why they call that OSA when there is no apnea only hypops

the problem is AHI is used to diagnose OSA whether you have OA or not

the question makes sense
the use of AHI when there is no A is what is misleading
as is the diagnose of OSA when there is no OA


I think we all agree that OSA is determined based on A and H. The OP does not have any A but does have H, but doesn't understand why the diagnosis of OSA is still valid since A=0???? If my understanding of the OP's confusion is correct, then the answer is simply that OSA is diagnosed based on A and H as both are relevant to OSA.

_________________
Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Ultimate Chin Strap, Auto CPAP 17-20
Use data to maximize your xPAP treatment:
how to see your data https://sleep.tnet.com/resources/sleepyhead
how to present your data https://sleep.tnet.com/resources/sleepyhead/shorganize
how to post your data https://sleep.tnet.com/reference/tips/imgur

sleep_apnea_suffer
Also Posted As:
(billbolton)
(Holden4th)
(kiri)
(SueW)
 

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby sleep_apnea_suffer on Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:20 am

Captain_Midnight wrote:SAS asks...Why are these people who interpret these home sleep tests, mix the two up together(Hypopnea and OSAs), when are not the same thing. One is partial obstruction the other one is fully obstruction. Should I go for another test? As in Inlab sleep test?

I think that hyponeas are highly under-rated as far as severity of secondary sequelae (health effects which result from the original condition of sleep disordered breathing.)

I strongly suspect that, in many cases, hypopneas would have been full apnea occlusions, but your body's fight-or-flight hormone response elevates your sleep level enough to avoid suffocation. The stress hormone epinephrine is a major culprit here; also, cortisol is released at the same time, all which do not play nice with your over-all health and well-being.

If one considers the possibility that hypopneas might be a fight-or-flight response to what might have been a full apnea, then their seriousness comes into better view.

Interestingly, a quick lit search could not locate any scientific studies to support my suspicion about hypopneas, but I'll look more thoroughly when I can take the time.

Good luck in your decision on whether to get that additional test.



.

The home sleep I did was pretty comprehensive. It had 12 channels so I will be speaking with the sleep physican asking what we can do. Also, not sure what drugs the scientists was on but she thinks that getting 5.30 hours of sleep is efficient sleep because I was getting rem sleep. My oxygen Saturation was minimum of 87 while on my back and an average of 93. It was like this on my sides too.

This was the results of my Hypopnea.

Longest Apnea | Hypopnea 10 | 21 sec
Mean Apnea / Hypopnea duration 13 sec
Mean Heart Rate 72bpm


I still feel like I have hit a brick wall when I wakeup.

xxyzx
 
Posts: 4557
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:23 am

zoocrewphoto wrote:
xxyzx wrote:the confusion is by the sleep industry using one term for two problems
he does NOT have OA
he does have hypops
he wants to know why they call that OSA when there is no apnea only hypops

the problem is AHI is used to diagnose OSA whether you have OA or not

the question makes sense
the use of AHI when there is no A is what is misleading
as is the diagnose of OSA when there is no OA



It might make sense if you use the whole word - hypopnea.

A hypopnea is simply a partial apnea. A partial blockage of the airflow compared to a full blockage. Both are obstructive as the airway is physically limited, as opposed to a clear airway with no blockage. They are basically the same thing, only one is partial and one is complete.

=======

a hypopnea is not an apnea
else they would not have two separate terms if both meant apnea

apnea means STOP BREATHIng and in this case do to obstruction not other causes blockign the air
note the a which mean stop

hypopnea means a restriction in air flow and is not a stoppage

that is what confused the OPer
Last edited by xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
Posts: 4557
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:24 am

TedVPAP wrote:
xxyzx wrote:
TedVPAP wrote:
sleep_apnea_suffer wrote:I am confused at hell at the sleep report I have been given. I did a sleep test and it found out that I had mild apnea, with no OSA/Central or REARS. I still have hypnoea but don't have OSA anymore. The strange thing is that the conclusion says that I have mild OSA. Why are these people who interpret these home sleep tests, mix the two up together(Hypopnea and OSAs), when are not the same thing. One is partial obstruction the other one is fully obstruction. Should I go for another test? As in Inlab sleep test?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since this guest post makes no sense and has made no attempt to clarify/correct, I think it is best if it is ignored until the OP corrects the obvious mistakes in sentence 2, 3, 5.
I am not trying to be a PITA but when people pose questions which obviously displays confusion (or are trolls), I do not think it is best to give advice until the confusion has been resolved. But that is just my pet peeve.

======

the post makes perfect sense
the problem is with real english vs sleep jargon

there is no confusion by the guest
the confusion is by the sleep industry using one term for two problems
he does NOT have OA
he does have hypops
he wants to know why they call that OSA when there is no apnea only hypops

the problem is AHI is used to diagnose OSA whether you have OA or not

the question makes sense
the use of AHI when there is no A is what is misleading
as is the diagnose of OSA when there is no OA


I think we all agree that OSA is determined based on A and H. The OP does not have any A but does have H, but doesn't understand why the diagnosis of OSA is still valid since A=0???? If my understanding of the OP's confusion is correct, then the answer is simply that OSA is diagnosed based on A and H as both are relevant to OSA.

========

i agree

the OP was confused because he did not have full apnea but was diagnosed with OSA based on partials aka hypops which are a lot different
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

xxyzx
 
Posts: 4557
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Hypopnea vs Apnea

Postby xxyzx on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:33 am

TASmart wrote:
xxyzx wrote:
TASmart wrote:Hypopneas under the latest definition of the American Academy of Sleep MEdicine do not necessarily require a desaturation to be included. Events more than 10 seconds that cause an arousal in sleep state also qualify.

======

without a desat would there ever be an arousal from hypop alone?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
yes. Why else would their newest definition specifically say that a hypopnea can be defined either as a desaturation or an arousal?

========

who knows why they do things like that
why the silly AHI metric that is based on bad statistics even if they do now include desats

hard to call it standard when AASM has 3 different ones

aasm has 3 definitions see this study for differences in results
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2635578/

To compare apnea-hypopnea indices (AHIs) derived using 3 standard hypopnea definitions published by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine (AASM); and to examine the impact of hypopnea definition differences on the measured prevalence of obstructive sleep apnea (OSA).

AHIs were originally calculated using previous AASM hypopnea scoring criteria (AHIChicago), requiring either > 50% airflow reduction or a lesser airflow reduction with associated > 3% oxygen desaturation or arousal.

For AHIRec, hypopneas were required to have ≥ 30% airflow reduction and ≥ 4% desaturation; and for AHIAlt, hypopneas were required to have ≥ 50% airflow reduction and ≥ 3% desaturation or arousal.


Failure to adjust cut-points for the new criteria would result in approximately 40% of patients previously classified as positive for OSA using AHIChicago being negative using AHIRec and 25% being negative using AHIAlt.

Conclusions:
This study demonstrates that using different published standard hypopnea definitions leads to marked differences in AHI. These results provide insight to clinicians and researchers in interpreting results obtained using different published standard hypopnea definitions, and they suggest that consideration should be given to revising the current scoring recommendations to include a single standardized hypopnea definition.
IF I ever say anything incorrect somebody will post true facts to prove it. But when my posts are accurate they will always attack me personally. You can decide whether my post is correct or not by looking at which they did. [color=#FF00FF]

PreviousNext

Return to CPAP and Sleep Apnea (CLICK HERE TO READ POSTS)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cchild2, chunkyfrog, Gryphon, nickdanger1 and 35 guests