How has your experience been with the SoClean2 Sanitizing?

[verbatim]

How has your experience been with the SoClean2 Sanitizing?
I received this message from a friend so I decided to ask you on her behalf.

Hi,
I bought the SoClean2 automatic cpap sanitizing machine....
But now my question is ....
Do you think the O3 or ozone that the machine uses is really bad for the seals in my Phillips Respironics system one Bi PAP auto machine ?
Did i make a mistake by buying this thing ?
I am sanitizing the mask hose and the humidifier tank. Yes I use the humidity.
Is there a corrosive effect on the internal seals that people are saying.
I am just wondering if it's bad for the internal seals?

[chunkyfrog]

Plug the word into the search box--and stand back.
These morons have been sending me SPAM email; and I am so fed up with it.

[verbatim]

no - i dont think it is bad for teh seals

I think the person who bought it is sorry but it's already a fait accompli, so they asked me for advice.

There are only two ways to get the answer to the question of whether the ozone damages the seals.
. Empirical (which only people who have the machine for a long time would know)
. Chemical (which will take some knowledge of specifications)

Mostly I'm asking for empirical evidence of seal damage here, since that would be obvious to anyone using it for a long time.

I will try to find the ozone concentration of this device, and then I can figure out what its effect would be on bacteria, viruses, and molds, where I suspect molds are the main enemy that the machine is trying to kill.

Anyone have the machine who can let us know, empirically, what the effect has been on your seals?

[lliann]

I bought one of these puppies. Took it out of the box. Decided it was too complicated. Never used.. Makes a good book holder.

[chunkyfrog]

Somebody reported that it turned the silicone yellow.
(Yuck)

[bigdave36]

I work with an arrogant jerk who had ordered a Soclean 2 plus the travel model, and ask me what I thought of it.
I told him to go ahead with the order as I had heard nothing but good about it

[verbatim]

Plug the word into the search box--and stand back

What matters is the ozone concentration first and foremost, since without that, nobody can say what it does (or doesn't do) to either mold or seals.

It's been a while since I even thought of the ozone layer, so looking it up as a refresher, ozone is a pale blue gas (at STP) comprised of three oxygens, which apparently makes up 0.6ppm of the atmosphere (even as the "ozone layer" itself is about 5 ppm).

It has a half life of somewhere between an hour and a day at STP.
It oxidizes most metals except the rare earth metals
copper Cu + O3 → CuO + O2
And more importantly, it will oxidize carbon C + 2 O3 → CO=2 + 2 O2 and is known to destroy double bonds where it seems to punch holes in bacterial cell walls.

In an aqueous solution, it forms sulfuric acid, and oxidizes sulfur, which might (or might not) be in the seals.

It starts to get toxic to plant and animal tissue at around 100 ppb, where the toxicity is oxidative. I don't know how the machine works yet, but ozone is only slightly soluble in water.

This article titled "OZONE EFFECTS ON SPECIFIC BACTERIA, VIRUSES AND MOLDS" shows the concentrations of ozone in water needed to kill things where the numbers are roughly around 0.5 to 3mg/liter for 30 seconds to five minutes (give or take) to kill bacteria and their spores.

So it seems that we'll need concentrations and times around that number for the machine to be effective on bacteria and their spores.

This articlesays that E. Coli is killed in one second by exposure to 2ppm, so that gives us another relative number to look for in the machine's output. An important conclusion from that paper was that higher concentrations didn't work any better.

Does anyone know offhand what the concentrations are from that machine?

[verbatim]

This report contradicts some of what was reported above, but reiterates that concentrations of about 3 to 8 ppm in water are the effective doses at contact times of from 1 to 10 minutes.

The most effective pH is 7.0 (neutral) and the amount of organic solids in the water reduce effectiveness, which makes sense since they are being burned off by the free oxygen.

This study shows that at least 50% humidity is critical in killing bacteria (they tested staph & strep at 0.2ppm to 2ppm) and at lower than that humidity, there was no appreciable killing power in the ozone.

They showed a killing power at doses as low as 0.02ppm where the ability of the surface to absorb water was critical (i.e., cloth was better at protecting the gram-positive bacteria from ozone than was glass). This shows that the surface must be clean from the start, so it's not apparently a "cleaner" so much as a killer.

They also show a much shorter half life of about 2.5 minutes to 7 minutes or up to 60 minutes under cool conditions. They show a list of compounds oxidized by ozone, where I'm not sure if rubber or silicone seals (what are the Resmed seals made of anyway?) contains appreciable amounts of them.

[verbatim]

Since I had never even heard of this SoClean2 until an hour ago, I looked up what it is.

The SoClean 2 is an automated CPAP equipment cleaner and sanitizer. With the SoClean 2 CPAP cleaning machine, you can sanitize and disinfect your CPAP mask, hose, and reservoir without needing to take any pieces apart every day. The machine does not require water or any messy chemicals in order to avoid condensation and ensure your equipment remains completely dry.

The operation says it kills 99% of the "germs" bacteria, viruses, and mold but doesn't need water, which is interesting since I just found out that ozone is useless without humidity, so, it must use the humidity in the air. (Note that there is no such thing as a "germ" per se but I guess they're using layman's terms, which is ok.)

From the description, apparently it sends the ozone gas through the the machine backward to the mask, which seems like an OK way to deliver the ozone, but it sure needs water (which it seems to get by bubbling through the reservoir) and I'm looking for the concentration of ozone.

They have a 3-minute demo video here.
https://youtu.be/Nzv2PGaOZF8
They call it "activated oxygen", which is, I guess, ok for laypeople and they say it's life is "about 2 hours", which seems ok from what I've read, and the runtime they say is "five to fifteen minutes", which is also reasonable based on what I read.

I'm going to assume the humidity needed means the reservoir must have water in it, otherwise it couldn't work (based on what I read) but what I really want to know is the concentration in PPM of ozone that it puts out.

EDIT: This faq says the reservoir doesn't have to have water in it, but we know humidity is required, so, it must rely on ambient humidity.

[chunkyfrog]

THEIR words, of course.
No law requires advertising to be truthful.

[Pap-Daddy]

I know ozone is a lung irritant but I also thought it was carcinogenic so I googled it. This is from ncbi nlm nih gov/pubmed/6376815

Abstract

Ozone is one of the most toxic and ubiquitous air pollutants. This review focuses on the toxic effects of ozone in animals and on the similarities and disimilarities between the toxic effects in animals and humans. The molecular basis for the toxicity of ozone is discussed, based on the vigorous oxidizing properties of ozone. Despite the existence of anatomical differences between human, subhuman primate, and dog lungs versus common experimental rodent lungs, the anatomical lesion of ozone inhalation occurs at the functionally equivalent site of the junction between the conducting airway and the respiratory region. Ciliated cells of the upper airways and the type 1 cell of the centriacinar region are most affected. Type 2 cell proliferation is a hallmark of ozone toxicity. A wide variety of biochemical and physiological changes have been noted in several animal species and in humans. Considerable evidence for a free-radical-mediated or lipid peroxide-mediated toxicity is evident, especially in the induction of the glutathione peroxidase system and the protective effects of vitamins C and E. Ozone appears to be a weak mutagen and to produce chromosomal abnormalities. Defects in defense against airborne infection are present in animals, which are more susceptible to airborne infection after ozone exposure. Epidemiological studies, however, fail to detect increased respiratory infections in humans due to ozone. Despite the variety of toxic effects, few qualitative differences between species are apparent; rather, quantitative differences do occur. Ozone may thus be an ideal compound for quantitative extrapolation of toxicity from animals to humans.

So the question is just why would you want to put something you will breath thru into an ozone environment? Or why put ozone into something you will breath thru? How often is it recommended you do this?

I have to think you will be better off not doing this.

[verbatim]

Googling further, I found the concentration at the Soclean2 web site.

Q: What is the concentration of ozone inside the SoClean?
A: less than 10 PPM (parts per million)

What does that mean? I don't want "less than" but "more than", since it's the PPM that does the killing.
It could be zero ppm and still be less than 10 ppm.

There is the other question here.

Q: Will it harm my mask or hose?
A: Acrylics, polycarbonate and silicone, which are the primary materials of masks and reservoirs, are completely compatible with activated oxygen and have stood up to the use of the SoClean

Neither answer says anything about the seals though, and it doesn't really say what "stood up" means.

I'll call their customer support
Sales (800) 747.1030, Customer Support (866) 501.3705, International +1(508) 363.0415

EDIT: I called but they're closed. They are open EST 8:30am to 7:00pm.

[verbatim]

I know ozone is a lung irritant but I also thought it was carcinogenic so I googled it.

Almost anything will kill you in high enough concentrations (even air will kill you - ask any diver), so we have to look at it with a dispassionate mind.

I'm sure the ozone oxidizes carbon where we can consider the ozone a carcinogen since it could screw with your DNA and once you screw with DNA you screw with the replication of that DNA where the body tries to repair the damage but carcinogens overwhelm the damage repair, and that's it for the summary of what causes cancer.

So I guess the game plan is to let the ozone dissipate where it will be diluted in the air of the house and it has a reasonably short half life anyway, so, the solution to pollution is dilution, as always.

So the question is just why would you want to put something you will breath thru into an ozone environment?

I edited the OP to make it clear that I never heard of this thing until I was asked about it from someone who bought it.
She asked me about the seals.

The rest of the questions were mine - but all she wants to know is how it affects the seals.
There are only two ways to get that answer:
. Empirically from someone who uses it
. Scientifically from an impartial scientist who has studied the effect on ResMed seals.

I don't even know what seals are in a resmed cpap device.
Does anyone?

Or why put ozone into something you will breath thru? How often is it recommended you do this?
I have to think you will be better off not doing this.

I don't even wash my tubes or mask for months, and I don't use the humidifier (it just sits there because it has to be there because I never bought the plate that gets rid of it).

But there are people out there who want to kill bacteria and molds - so I'm ok with that.
[Technically you can't "kill" a virus because it's already not living in the first place.]

All I want to know is if someone has experience with this thing damaging their seals, whatever seals there may be.

At the moment, it doesn't seem all that dangerous to seals, but I'm assuming a seal is a rubber o-ring, but I have no idea what seals are in a resmed machine.

[Guest]

Almost anything will kill you in high enough concentrations (even air will kill you - ask any diver),

Is that from too much water or not enuff O2?

[verbatim]

Is that from too much water or not enuff O2?

It's not that there is too little oxygen in plain air - it's that there is too much oxygen in plain air.

Every scuba diver is taught about the partial pressure of gases, where even the oxygen in plain air will kill you if you dive deeply, which is why recreational divers who use plain air don't dive deeply, and conversely it's also why deep divers don't use plain air.

When you dive deeply using plain air, the partial pressure of the oxygen basically oxidizes you, just like ozone oxidizes bacteria, which is an effect called oxygen toxicity.

As I recall, they found this out empirically, by the way, because at first, nobody thought plain air would kill you.
But it does.

In fact, the way oxygen in plain air will kill a diver is eerily similar to the way that ozone kills bacteria, but my point was that to worry about the carcinogenicity of less than 10ppm ozone in an enclosed space inside of a sanitizing machine is probably worrying too much because the machine has a carbon filter (which reacts with the ozone, as we already mentioned) and anyway, even if the ozone leaked out, it would be diluted by the air in the room and it has a short half life even it if wasn't diluted.

Right now, similar to how they first empirically found out that plain air, at high pressure, will kill you, I want to find out if the ozone at something less than 10ppm will degrade the seals of the machine.

This empirical evidence can only be obtained from someone using the machine for a period of time because I doubt the company that makes the machine is going to tell the truth.

All I want to know is two things.
. Anyone using the machine see damaged seals from using the machine?
. What's the average ozone ppm inside the machine?