mayo clinic on CSA vs others

[zoocrewphoto]

the mayo clinic study showed at 15% of apnea patients have CA

so dismissing that possibility when patients still feel tired after being treated for OSA with cpap is a big mistake

some folks here seem to think CA is so rare it need not be considered
but those who are still tired after your initial cpap treatment should look to see whether it really is complex/mixed apnea
or there are other problems keeping your treatment from being successful

When people come here asking for help, we all frequently asking them for the data and graphs, and specifically for the makeup of events. Why? Because the treatment for obstructive events and clear airway events are different. And we don't want to raise the minimum pressure for CSA when they really need a different machine.

Why do you think people are ignoring CA? It shows up in the data, so if it is untreated, we can see it if the person provides the data from their machine.

[Guest]

a link to the study would be nice ... quoting some random things or presenting your own interpretation is quite entertaining but nothing more.

[TASmart]

Since CSA is included in the AHI it is not ignored once a patient ahs been treated with xPAP. However the AHI does not consider the duration of events, so it can be thought of as an incomplete marker for successful treatment.

[Guest]

ahi is a crude surrogate statistics because it omits duration and the effect on o2 and heart rate

once again: how in your world do the O2 levels drop for someone with sleepanpnea (SA) (and no problems controlling the breathing - as in beeing able to speak) if there are no respiratory events?
If you tried to save a penny on your sleep study and used a doctor who just puts his name under completely automated results you might get that impression. but AHI was nerver, is not now and will never be the one and only measurement for anything!
We all know you have no clue to all of this - but there really is a reason people here are asking for charts - including the flowchart! If you would have a machine or even the slightest idea about sleep apnea you would know WHY!

Can you spell this:
"you can have breathing related events without any O2-Dops - but if you have SA your O2 levels cannot drop without any events"

making some studies up or inserting random quotes doesn't change that.

ketchup clinic shows that user in internet boards whose nick starts and ends with the same letter have a much lower than average IQ.
This finding is backed up by the double-blind-study from Prof. Dr. Dr. Lulz from the renowned institute of "the control of bullshit in the internet".

I like kechtup and I do trust in the lulz - they must be right. At least this holds in my controlgroup!

[TASmart]

a link to the study would be nice ... quoting some random things or presenting your own interpretation is quite entertaining but nothing more.

========


not my interpretation

it was the study

i print them all off as i find them and some are in journals not on the net
so no links to post

if you have any intellectually honest and really care then you can track them down like i am doing

One would think that a PhD would know how to write a proper citation for a journal article, even in the absence of an on-line link.

[Guest]

really

that is too stupid to reply too

suppose you stop breathing aka apnea just once
how long would it take your o2 to go low enough to kill you
remember the heart rate goes up as o2 goes down and it tries to keep the o2 going to the brain
at some point you exceed your maximum and then kaput if you dont wake up
and if you do the low o2 has already caused damage

not everybody wakes up

what exactly are you talking about? ... so you have 1 single SPO2-desaturation ... the same as in the AHI. .. wow ODI rules! you are right - I see that now clearly.

no .. wait ... now you have some hypopneas, some RERAs ... (remember BREATHING RELATED SLEEP DISORDER!) ... your O2 does not drop ... your heart rate might spike some but not so much or not at all - your sleep-state changes nervertheless. --> shows up in the AHI / RDI!
bad sleep - sleep deprivation does result in DEATH - no doubt about that - much faster than some dops in oxygene in the night! (really! read up on that - extensive military studies done - open to the public - seach for military and mescalin and meth! (you folks in USA did some very crazy stuff there ... the nazis back in WWII did some even more stupid things regarding that!)

THAT is the difference between breaking the therapy after the 1st day, reading some comercials and than posting crap and claiming some degrees - you even make up your own "facts" and tell people that this is based on "studies" from "vetted sources".

[Hang Fire]

because a lot of trolls here said i was FOS and that CA was not a concern

You are lying again. No one here ever posted that central apneas are not a concern.

[SewTired]

FWIW, here's an article that references the study. The study is probably around on the net, but I'm not interested enough to look it up. You will note that the article is over a decade old.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 161349.htm

[ajack]

FWIW, here's an article that references the study. The study is probably around on the net, but I'm not interested enough to look it up. You will note that the article is over a decade old.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 161349.htm

The study confirmation of mixed apnea, a landmark event..... edited

[zoocrewphoto]

the mayo clinic study showed at 15% of apnea patients have CA

so dismissing that possibility when patients still feel tired after being treated for OSA with cpap is a big mistake

some folks here seem to think CA is so rare it need not be considered
but those who are still tired after your initial cpap treatment should look to see whether it really is complex/mixed apnea
or there are other problems keeping your treatment from being successful

When people come here asking for help, we all frequently asking them for the data and graphs, and specifically for the makeup of events. Why? Because the treatment for obstructive events and clear airway events are different. And we don't want to raise the minimum pressure for CSA when they really need a different machine.

Why do you think people are ignoring CA? It shows up in the data, so if it is untreated, we can see it if the person provides the data from their machine.

===========

because a lot of trolls here said i was FOS and that CA was not a concern
when i told people with low ahi that still felt terrible that they shuold check for CA

But the CAs are IN the ahi. If you have an ahi of 2, that means only 2 events per hour. Clear airway events would be in those stats, so you can't look for them elsewhere. Unless they are really long, one or two events per hours is not bad. If they still feel bad with a really low ahi, we do look at the graphs to see if they are long or clustered. We also look at pressure changes and other things. But they are IN the ahi number. You can't have a low ahi with lots of CA events. And with CAs, they could be sleep wake junk anyway.

[ajack]

edited
It had been known for a while, the study just looked in detail at it.
"This phenomenon has been observed for years, but this study is the first attempt to categorize these people."

[palerider]

Reading comprehension isn't your best asset, is it.
"This phenomenon has been observed for years, but this study is the first attempt to categorize these people."

=====

i read quite well

you keep trying to project your flaws on me because you cant admit to being the doofus you really are

talk about projection!

[ajack]

"This phenomenon has been observed for years, but this study is the first attempt to categorize these people."

=====

i read quite well

you keep trying to project your flaws on me because you cant admit to being the doofus you really are

I'm sorry, It was thoughtless of me to directly answer you and cause you further distress. I will edit my post. I initially wanted to acknowledge the study, but I'm frustrated about they way you post too and I took the opportunity to have a shot at you. It was wrong of me, I wasn't thinking of you and how you feel.

I really don't know the best way I, or the forum in general, proceeds from here. Upsetting you isn't in your best interest, nor of any benefit to anyone. I think you aren't in a position to back down. Perhaps an irrational need to be right, while attacking back, in response to feeling attacked by the group. I can see that you are very angry. At the same time, there are some things you say that may not be in the interest of a new poster.

It is good that you are reading up on apnea, I learn better by visual/audio now, probably from the decades of watching TV. You may get a better understanding from youtube videos, there are some excellent ones on ASV from this site over several seminars
https://www.youtube.com/user/emjreviews/videos

if you take nothing else from the experts, take this sound bite, you can then view it all for context. this doctors serious patients had a 50% resolution of complex SA within a few months and a return to cpap therapy.
https://youtu.be/Nr08K5IfzzY?t=2851

"the majority of these patients will resolve anyway" from this sound bite
https://youtu.be/tMQgxS2kh9Y?t=124

As you know the subject of pressure induced centrals are well talked about on the forums. Where in general, if they didn't show up in the original sleep study, they should resolve.

[Guest]

you are stuck on stupid



sleep deprivation wont cause death because apneas are causing it
like my doctor said
the body will just go to sleep if it needs it enough
sleep deprivation can cause death if done long enough
like when the cia tortures some terrorist

but lack of o2 will kill you much quicker
in minutes
sleep deprivation takes days of continuous deprivation

We are clearly not talking about the same. Maybe I don't understand what you are talking about or maybe I misunderstand the whole PAP-thing wrong.

you are always talking about that only O2-levels are important - thus referring to apneas. In treatment that is fixed. (at least where I live - here you simply cannot get a machine without visiting a sleeplab with real doctors.)
You say that the AHI is of no importance because it simply does not reflect O2-levels - I agree on the O2 part.

If you have a breathing disorder of any kind there should be events which show up in the AHI. And here I have to contradict you: it is not like the events where the O2 would drop is totally missed. What I and I believe some others are saying is: AHI will always or in most cases be higher than the corresponding index for oxygensaturation the ODI. (ODI does not count the duration either - just by the way)

breathing related events that do not result in O2-drops can prevent you from getting a "decent" sleep - thus causing sleep deprivation.
You say: bad sleep is of no concern - only O2 counts.
I have to contradict you again: sleep deprivation does result in organ failure in the end. It has a cumulative effect.

O2 levels are just the tip of the iceberg - getting that fixed is mandatory - not caring for what lies under the water is just - and please excuse me - plain stupid.

I am posting under the impression that this board is for breathing related sleep disorders. Just monitoring O2-levels on someone with UARS makes no sense - that one would look absolutely healthy - but he or she is not! These people wake up before the airways are collapsed and an apnea would be scored - a couple of times per hour - thus in bad cases never reaching the deeper / refreshing sleep stages - thus beeing deprived of sleep - which than results in other problems and symptoms.

I don't know of the state of the medical expertise in your country - where I live noone - not even laymans - care about anything if you stop breathing for minutes in the night. You get nearly instantly hooked up to the proper machine / device.
Noone and I repeat NOONE - would say: nay, just happens 2 times per hour - we don't treat that until it reaches xx events per hour.
(Maybe there are some third-world-countries where this is not true - but it should hold for every country with at least some sort of basic medical system - aka real doctors)

you can die too if your blood pressure gets way too low - noone would say that because of that you ONLY have to monitor your blood pressure because everything else is just a "crude surrogate".

Maybe if you could stop responding with insults and actually say something ON the topic itself or explain why you think all other things should be dismissed you could be understood or at least it could be understood why you think that way.

[Guest]

actually that was the first time you did not dismiss every other thing than the O2-Levels.

but I get from your response that you hold on to your view that the AHI and therefore every breathing related event is of no concern - unless (some 30 seconds later that should be) your O2 starts to drop in freefall?