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tedtomato
 
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Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby tedtomato on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:31 pm

Just saw an announcement from Fitbit that some of their newer fitness band devices with heart rate monitoring (e.g. Charge 2 or Alta HR) will soon be able to track sleep stages (light, deep, REM).

https://blog.fitbit.com/sleep-stages-an ... ouncement/

They have basically managed to come up, after 2 years of research, with an algorithm that combines motion detection and heart rate changes to identify the various stages.

I have a Fitbit Charge 2 device, and so far, it could only track periods of restless sleep during the night, but not the stages. Still somehow useful in regards to OSA, and restless sleeping.

I also have a Jawbone UP3 device, which is able to track the sleep stages fairly well, and is cheap to buy. However, it's not that good at anything else (I only wear it during the nights), and Jawbone have just announced that they are pulling out of the consumer band market.

I have tried the Resmed S+ contactless sleep tracking device, and it was not working well at all.

Therefore, I am excited by the new upcoming Fitbit features (apparently coming end of March)!

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby Pugsy on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:38 pm

I would like to see the research that compares the FitBit sleep data to a sleep study result to see how they match up as far as the sleep stages.
Meaning...a person wears the FitBit and gets a sleep study at the same time, same night.
THAT comparison would interest me.

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby tedtomato on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:53 pm

If they have spent the last 2 years developing the software, I am sure they must have compared their data with proper clinical sleep study data.

However, since I am not going to sleep with sensors and electrodes every night (and I don't have the equipment anyway), then even some approximations from an unobtrusive wrist device is helpful data to me, particularly when I correlate with data from my CPAP machine, and how I feel.

I will surely compare the Fitbit data with my Jawbone Up3 device, which I believe is reporting sleep stages fairly well.

I think Resmed failed badly on their home sleep monitoring devices, and I wish they would buy the technology from Jawbone. Having a wrist band device, analyzing motion, body temperature and heart rate would be a great addition to other data they are collecting via CPAP, and would allow to get some good home sleep analysis.

Hopefully, they are working on such Bluetooth device, that could connect to CPAP and some new sleep app.

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby Pugsy on Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:06 pm

tedtomato wrote: I am sure they must have compared their data with proper clinical sleep study data.


Yeah but I still want to see the proof.
I want cold hard facts.
I would be happy if it was close..wouldn't expect it to be 100% but I want cold hard facts/proof.
No where in that one little blog did it mention what I want was ever done. Now maybe it was...I would assume I wouldn't be the only one wanting to be able to back up such a bold statement.
So I am not saying the proof doesn't exist...I am just saying I want to see it.

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby tedtomato on Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:34 pm

Good for you...

I am not sure they are going to disclose too much about the algorithm or what process they took to develop it. It's called retaining a competitive advantage.

Given some of the class actions against Fitbit recently, I am sure they will have done some due diligence regarding releasing new features. Otherwise, they would just not release those.

If you don't think that's going to be scientific or accurate enough, then just don't buy it.

I already have the right device anyway, so will get the firmware upgrade for free, and will compare the data with my other tracker. Nothing to lose, and I am excited to try it out.

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby Pugsy on Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:49 pm

I don't want the algorithm itself. Could care less.
I want to see a fit bit sleep stage report compared to a real sleep study report. Same person, same night..it's the only way it would be a valid scientific study.
Thinking they have come up with a fancy algorithm that predicts sleep stages doesn't mean it does.

Again...I would be tickled to death if it were true and anywhere close to accurate would be good enough for me.
I just want proof. I own a fit bit. Nice fun little gadget that told me I walked 7,739 steps one day when I spent an hour on the riding lawn mower...and it would often tell me I was asleep when I knew full well I was awake.

I hope it's fairly accurate and true...but I am not going to blindly take their word for it. If it really works...there will be proof out there for all the world to see so they can say "see here this is what we CAN do and here's the proof"... It would be a helluva marketing tool and they will make a fortune.
But if it's all wishful thinking and they can't back it up...and trust me...someone will test if even if they don't make the testing public...and if it fails...well.
Someone will jut buy one and wear it in a sleep lab and compare and the make the results public..
That's a foregone conclusion. They had better be able to stand behind their claims.

They don't need to disclose how they do it...just that it gets done and put a fitbit sleep stage report up against a sleep study report. Simple and easy to do. Hell...I would be willing to do it myself.

Hey...I really hope it works...I would love to have one if I could trust it. I just want proof I can trust it. That's not an unreasonable request.

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby Rob K on Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:12 pm

I have an Withings Aura sleep sensor/alarm clock. It is specifically made to track sleep stages. It's not the most accurate. I don't think any of the devices we are talking about do a very good job. Mediocre at best, that's what it seems like to me with my limited experience. Hopefully this technology will improve.

Like Pugsy says, show us the proof. I have yet to see any proof during my brief research when I was looking to purchase. My guess is they did compare them to a night in the lab and they were not close enough to publicly report the data.

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby knothead on Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:09 pm

I've got the fit bit charge 2, wore it to bed 3-4 times just to see what it does. Just gives times you were awake, restless for some reason, nothing else. But on the other hand since I been wearing this thing I have dropped 20 lbs. a miracle...LOL :D

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby palerider on Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:37 pm

knothead wrote:I've got the fit bit charge 2, ... since I been wearing this thing I have dropped 20 lbs. a miracle...LOL :D

is it so heavy you can't lift your arm to feed yourself anymore? :D

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby tedtomato on Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:11 pm

knothead wrote:I've got the fit bit charge 2, wore it to bed 3-4 times just to see what it does. Just gives times you were awake, restless for some reason, nothing else.


... until you get the firmware update at the end of the month, which will give you a lot more sleep data.

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby chunkyfrog on Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:27 pm

The Misfit Flash, at a fraction of the price, generates similar data to the Zeo.
Maybe not lab quality, but close enough for an occasional check.

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby WildMtnHoney on Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Yeah, I was gonna mention that my old Misfit tracked sleep states, and now my new Garmin Vivofit HR tracks deep, light and awake.

Image

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby knothead on Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:33 am

palerider wrote:
knothead wrote:I've got the fit bit charge 2, ... since I been wearing this thing I have dropped 20 lbs. a miracle...LOL :D

is it so heavy you can't lift your arm to feed yourself anymore? :D



HAHAHA, thats a good one PR. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby tedtomato on Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:33 pm

Pugsy wrote:just that it gets done and put a fitbit sleep stage report up against a sleep study report. That's not an unreasonable request.


Well, if you think comparing a fitbit device (which can basically only track motion and hear rate) to a machine with a lot of electrodes connected to your head and body (as well as many other sensors), costing $$$, is a reasonable request, then no, it's not.

You have to adjust your expectations a bit.

I am interested to know what else could do some level of sleep analysis (various sleep stages) at home, for around $150. I have tried the Jawbone UP3, which does seem to provide some good data. I have tried the Resmed S+ contactless device, which just provided random data.

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Re: Some Fitbit devices to start tracking sleep stages

Postby palerider on Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:44 pm

tedtomato wrote:
Pugsy wrote:just that it gets done and put a fitbit sleep stage report up against a sleep study report. That's not an unreasonable request.


Well, if you think comparing a fitbit device (which can basically only track motion and hear rate) to a machine with a lot of electrodes connected to your head and body (as well as many other sensors), costing $$$, is a reasonable request, then no, it's not.

You have to adjust your expectations a bit.

so, in other words, well, mostly your words, you shouldn't expect the fitbit to be reliable, since you don't think it's reasonable to compare it with something that has a fairly high reliability.

then what's the point in the gadget?

tedtomato wrote:I am interested to know what else could do some level of sleep analysis (various sleep stages) at home, for around $150. I have tried the Jawbone UP3, which does seem to provide some good data. I have tried the Resmed S+ contactless device, which just provided random data.

zeo, found on ebay, still the most reliable home device for determining sleep states.

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