Recommendations for a back-up full face mask to my DreamWear

[Pugsy]

It is heavier than the DreamWear...no way around that but it isn't hugely heavier. Compared to the other full face masks out there it's really lightweight. There's more to it than with the DreamWear so it has to be a little bit heavier.

I will share this with you...I am a nasal pillow mask user from way back....hate personally full face masks for several reasons.
I decided to try the Amara View after trying the DreamWear just to see if it was workable for me since I liked the DreamWear.
I actually used the Amara View for about 2 weeks. Now coming from me that's saying something...I have tried other full face masks over the years and this one is the only one I could even sleep one night with...much less multiple nights and actually sleep quite decently with very minimal mask issues.
Masks that I try that I know I won't ever use again I pass on to someone else. I kept the Amara View (that's how I got those pictures) just in case there ever came a time where I couldn't use my usual nasal pillow mask for some reason.
Now the View will never be my primary mask but I could use it if I had to and I could do very well with it.
I mouth breathe on occasion...I know I do because sometimes I wake up mouth breathing but I evaluate the leak graphs and I don't do it often and I don't go into large leak territory often and when I do go into large leak territory I never stay there very long.
So I opt to still use the nasal pillow mask because I still get the best sleep with it even with the minor mouth breathing I might do.

So...just how much mouth breathing are you doing? Is it huge amount or small amount? Wake you up often or do you sleep right through it. Really bad dry mouth or so so dry mouth?

[DeeCPAP]

It is heavier than the DreamWear...no way around that but it isn't hugely heavier. Compared to the other full face masks out there it's really lightweight. There's more to it than with the DreamWear so it has to be a little bit heavier.

I will share this with you...I am a nasal pillow mask user from way back....hate personally full face masks for several reasons.
I decided to try the Amara View after trying the DreamWear just to see if it was workable for me since I liked the DreamWear.
I actually used the Amara View for about 2 weeks. Now coming from me that's saying something...I have tried other full face masks over the years and this one is the only one I could even sleep one night with...much less multiple nights and actually sleep quite decently with very minimal mask issues.
Masks that I try that I know I won't ever use again I pass on to someone else. I kept the Amara View (that's how I got those pictures) just in case there ever came a time where I couldn't use my usual nasal pillow mask for some reason.
Now the View will never be my primary mask but I could use it if I had to and I could do very well with it.
I mouth breathe on occasion...I know I do because sometimes I wake up mouth breathing but I evaluate the leak graphs and I don't do it often and I don't go into large leak territory often and when I do go into large leak territory I never stay there very long.
So I opt to still use the nasal pillow mask because I still get the best sleep with it even with the minor mouth breathing I might do.

So...just how much mouth breathing are you doing? Is it huge amount or small amount? Wake you up often or do you sleep right through it. Really bad dry mouth or so so dry mouth?

You asked good questions. I didn't think the Dreamwear leaked, or at least not too much. Didn't need the Biotine spray. Before, using other gear, I used to wake up frequently in the middle of the night because of a dry mouth, used Biotene spray and went back to sleep. Then it stopped with the DreamWear. The only reason I now have to get a FF is because the tech said I open my mouth A LOT. Now that I think about it, I have the Sleepy Head software. Looked at it occasionally, but didn't see too many leaks but I only looked at the circle on the bottom left of the screen.

I tried uploading it here before, but it didn't work so I gave up. Maybe I'll try again, but it's way too aggravating!

[Pugsy]

You don't necessarily have to post the image right now.
Look over on the left side where the statistics are and scroll down until you see the "time over leak red line" % statistic. How much is the %?

If you are mouth breathing it will show up as a leak...a leak is a leak no matter what the cause.
The machine can compensate for any leaks up to large leak territory leaks and actually does a decent job for a short while into large leak territory.
Large leak territory with a ResMed machine (which I assume you have since you are showing the S9 humidifier in your profile) begins at 24 L/min...up until then the machine can handle it. The further you go past 24 the less the machine can handle it...gets a bit iffy starting around 30 L/min and you might see some unknown apneas...over 35 and the machine can have significant trouble responding and sensing and recording.

[DeeCPAP]

You don't necessarily have to post the image right now.
Look over on the left side where the statistics are and scroll down until you see the "time over leak red line" % statistic. How much is the %?

If you are mouth breathing it will show up as a leak...a leak is a leak no matter what the cause.
The machine can compensate for any leaks up to large leak territory leaks and actually does a decent job for a short while into large leak territory.
Large leak territory with a ResMed machine (which I assume you have since you are showing the S9 humidifier in your profile) begins at 24 L/min...up until then the machine can handle it. The further you go past 24 the less the machine can handle it...gets a bit iffy starting around 30 L/min and you might see some unknown apneas...over 35 and the machine can have significant trouble responding and sensing and recording.

Does this help? I tried to line up the colums, but it doesn't "save" properly when I submit.

Average Leak Rate 6.79 7.86 6.57 8.49 9.83
90% Leak Rate 26.40 30.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
% of time above Leak Rate threshold 11.72% 12.97% 5.84% 3.84% 5.64%

Also, the leak rate may be a bit higher because of trying to adjust the gear without turning off the machine (but not for long periods of time).

[Pugsy]

Does this help? I tried to line up the colums, but it doesn't "save" properly when I submit.

Average Leak Rate 6.79 7.86 6.57 8.49 9.83
90% Leak Rate 26.40 30.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
% of time above Leak Rate threshold 11.72% 12.97% 5.84% 3.84% 5.64%

From the summary statistics page? This is a ResMed machine correct?
If so... last night it was 11.72 % of the night in large leak territory. I would need to see the graphs to evaluate the 90% leak number of 26.40 because all that means is you were at OR BELOW that leak number for 90% of the night. We don't know how far above it you went but you spent 10% of the night up there.

Out of a 7 hour night (420 minutes) that 11.72% equals 49 minutes...and based on the 90% leak number..the bulk of that 49 minutes was at or below 26.40 (the or below part is real important because it does NOT mean you were at that number for 90% of the night)....so 44 minutes at or below 26.40.
5 minutes in leak above 26.40...and we don't know how far above but personally...5 minutes isn't the end of the world no matter how high it got.
ResMed doesn't even give you a Mr Frowny face until you hit 30% of the time in large leak.

If the leaks (wherever they are coming from and they might not all be mouth leaks) aren't waking you up or disturbing you...I don't know that I would change to a full face mask just for this amount of large leak (even if every bit of it was mouth breathing which it might not all be mouth breathing) unless I just wanted to and it doesn't sound like you want to. It's not like people don't have leaks with a full face mask...they can have mask movement leaks..and a leak is a leak no matter the cause.
The only thing is that therapy pressure doesn't get lost out the mouth but it can still get lost with mask movement leaks.

You want to see an ugly night? The bulk of this mess is mask movement. Woke me up and also woke hubby up. I still got a Mr Smiley for mask fit. Trying a new mask and I guess it isn't going so well in the fit department.

[bonjour]

Hint: right click on the Leak Rate graph
then mouse over "dotted lines"
then select "Leak Rate upper threshold"

this will put a dotted line on the leak rate graph. This will make very obvious how much you are over the "High Leak Rate" value.

[Pugsy]

this will put a dotted line on the leak rate graph. This will make very obvious how much you are over the "High Leak Rate" value.

Yes it will indeed. I wondered where the red line went. What I normally do when I really want to evaluate the line I enlarge the entire leak graph so I can see the numbers on the left really easy...then I can easily eyeball the time above the red line.
The above leak I shared...really out of the ordinary for me so I didn't bother...I knew it was ugly...and knew it would be ugly before I even downloaded it.
Most of my large leak time is extremely small and barely into large leak territory.
It's very rare I go past 30 L/min. So I don't do much dissecting of my leak graph.

[DeeCPAP]

Does this help? I tried to line up the colums, but it doesn't "save" properly when I submit.

Average Leak Rate 6.79 7.86 6.57 8.49 9.83
90% Leak Rate 26.40 30.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
% of time above Leak Rate threshold 11.72% 12.97% 5.84% 3.84% 5.64%

From the summary statistics page? This is a ResMed machine correct?
If so... last night it was 11.72 % of the night in large leak territory. I would need to see the graphs to evaluate the 90% leak number of 26.40 because all that means is you were at OR BELOW that leak number for 90% of the night. We don't know how far above it you went but you spent 10% of the night up there.

Out of a 7 hour night (420 minutes) that 11.72% equals 49 minutes...and based on the 90% leak number..the bulk of that 49 minutes was at or below 26.40 (the or below part is real important because it does NOT mean you were at that number for 90% of the night)....so 44 minutes at or below 26.40.

5 minutes in leak above 26.40...and we don't know how far above but personally...5 minutes isn't the end of the world no matter how high it got.
ResMed doesn't even give you a Mr Frowny face until you hit 30% of the time in large leak.

If the leaks (wherever they are coming from and they might not all be mouth leaks) aren't waking you up or disturbing you...I don't know that I would change to a full face mask just for this amount of large leak (even if every bit of it was mouth breathing which it might not all be mouth breathing) unless I just wanted to and it doesn't sound like you want to. It's not like people don't have leaks with a full face mask...they can have mask movement leaks..and a leak is a leak no matter the cause.
The only thing is that therapy pressure doesn't get lost out the mouth but it can still get lost with mask movement leaks.

You want to see an ugly night? The bulk of this mess is mask movement. Woke me up and also woke hubby up. I still got a Mr Smiley for mask fit. Trying a new mask and I guess it isn't going so well in the fit department.

The numbers I typed in (above) were from several columns: Most recent - last week - last month, etc. ALSO, a couple of days last week I tried chin guards and one night was so bad I took off the mask in my sleep so the leak was probably very high. I have more questions, but too much data can be overwhelming, but from what you're saying, my doctor's tech was wrong when he told me the leaks are effecting my sleep (my REM sleep) which means it's ineffective. That's when he brought up the issue of chin guard. Is SleepyHead more accurate than data one would get at a pulmonologist's office?

There's so much information in SleepyHead it's hard to know what's pertinent!! Is the daily circle pie chart reliable?

[Pugsy]

Is the daily circle pie chart reliable?

Reliable ...yes
Useful ...not really.

All it tells us is the percent of breakdown into each category or how big of a piece of a whole pie that section is. Doesn't tell us how many in total.

If you had 2 events all night...1 central/clear airway and one obstructive apnea half the chart would be CA and half would be OA.

If you had 50 events all night...with 25 Central and 25 Obstructive...half the pie would be Central and half would be Obstructive.

So did it really tell you anything important?

[DeeCPAP]

this will put a dotted line on the leak rate graph. This will make very obvious how much you are over the "High Leak Rate" value.

Yes it will indeed. I wondered where the red line went. What I normally do when I really want to evaluate the line I enlarge the entire leak graph so I can see the numbers on the left really easy...then I can easily eyeball the time above the red line.
The above leak I shared...really out of the ordinary for me so I didn't bother...I knew it was ugly...and knew it would be ugly before I even downloaded it.
Most of my large leak time is extremely small and barely into large leak territory.
It's very rare I go past 30 L/min. So I don't do much dissecting of my leak graph.

With the data I gave you in a post, I tried different chin guards. One night I took off all the headgear while asleep, so I'm
not sure if those numbers are accurate, but essentially, you're saying that I don't breathe through my mouth enough to
use a FF mask? If that's the case, you've solved the problem and I'll feel more at peace. This stuff can drive ya crazy!

[DeeCPAP]

Is the daily circle pie chart reliable?

Reliable ...yes
Useful ...not really.

All it tells us is the percent of breakdown into each category or how big of a piece of a whole pie that section is. Doesn't tell us how many in total.

If you had 2 events all night...1 central/clear airway and one obstructive apnea half the chart would be CA and half would be OA.

If you had 50 events all night...with 25 Central and 25 Obstructive...half the pie would be Central and half would be Obstructive.

So did it really tell you anything important?

Thanks. That explains a lot about the pie chart.

[palerider]

Is the daily circle pie chart reliable?

Reliable ...yes
Useful ...not really.

All it tells us is the percent of breakdown into each category or how big of a piece of a whole pie that section is. Doesn't tell us how many in total.

If you had 2 events all night...1 central/clear airway and one obstructive apnea half the chart would be CA and half would be OA.

If you had 50 events all night...with 25 Central and 25 Obstructive...half the pie would be Central and half would be Obstructive.

So did it really tell you anything important?

between the AHI, to see if there's a problem, and the pie chart, to see where the problem is, I see at a glance, in less time than it takes to look through all the various Oi, Ci, Hi, Ui types and comparing the numbers...

[Pugsy]

between the AHI, to see if there's a problem, and the pie chart, to see where the problem is, I see at a glance, in less time than it takes to look through all the various Oi, Ci, Hi, Ui types and comparing the numbers...

Yeah but some people can't seem to factor in the AHI when looking at the pie chart.
Case in point, someone who tells someone they need to deal with the ton of hyponeas they are having because the entire pie chart was hyponea...and the only thing they had was an AHI of 0.2 with a hyponea index of 0.2...from maybe 4 or 5 hyponeas over the entire night.

The pie chart, like anything else, has its place as long as you know what it means and what it is showing a person.

[Pugsy]

One night I took off all the headgear while asleep, so I'm
not sure if those numbers are accurate, but essentially, you're saying that I don't breathe through my mouth enough to use a FF mask? If that's the case, you've solved the problem and I'll feel more at peace. This stuff can drive ya crazy!

If some of the leak numbers shown also include mask removal leaks it makes for an even less strong of an argument for making the switch to a full face mask. There may be some leak spikes elevating the overall leak numbers.

Most of the time the DME is going by the 90/95% numbers when they say that a person is "leaking too much" for whatever reason and the 90/95% numbers sometimes don't reflect the actual situation clearly.

I have a good example of when 90/95% number can sometimes give the wrong impression in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108724&p=1036669&hi ... t#p1036669
It's a very short thread and if you have time take a look.
The leaks certainly weren't perfect but they weren't nearly as bad as the 48 L/min 95% number might lead you to believe. I sure wouldn't be switching to a different mask that I didn't particularly want even if I saw this every night (which thankfully I don't) as long as I was sleeping decently (leaks not waking me) and feeling good.

I sure wouldn't be switching to a mask I didn't want to fix maybe 5 minutes of big leak no matter how big it was.
Assuming all the big leaks you are seeing are indeed mouth breathing/opening leaks I don't think 5 minutes over 26.8 L/min leak warrants a full face mask if a person doesn't want one. Plus I doubt that 100% of the big leak is mouth related...I bet some of it is mask movement.

Do you really need a full face mask? It certainly isn't urgent based on the numbers you've shown along with the fact that you are sleeping decently for the most part and feeling decent. I sure wouldn't be going to a mask that I didn't want if I had those numbers...heck I wouldn't do it with worse numbers.

Now would it be a good idea to have a full face mask available just in case there was ever a situation where you had to do a lot of mouth breathing for some reason? Like if you had a bad allergy attack or had a cold or flu situation where there could possibly be an awful lot of mouth breathing. Sure, that's why I have the Amara View stashed away but I have yet to have a cold so bad I couldn't get my nose cleared up enough to use my nasal pillow mask and I am coming on my 8 year anniversary in May of being on cpap....and I just got the Amara View a couple of years ago. Tried it mainly on a lark because just wanted to try it...not because I had ever really needed it. Decided to keep it because it might come in handy some day.

Your leak graphs probably aren't real pretty but we don't get extra points for pretty and pretty doesn't guarantee that we are sleeping good and feeling good. My leak graphs are rarely very pretty. Every now and then I might get to pat myself on the back with a really pretty leak graph but I don't beat myself up if I don't have a real pretty leak graph. My main primary goal is to get good sleep and feel good..not to get real pretty anything.
I do suggest that you take the time to learn to evaluate the leak graph so that you can understand the numbers and what they mean and make your own determination of just how bad the leak might have been and does it really seriously impact the quality of your therapy.

5 minutes of really big leak really only affect those 5 minutes in terms of therapy effectiveness (assuming you sleep through the big leak). It doesn't put the other parts of the night in the toilet. Only the time in really big leak is maybe in the toilet.

Besides...it's not like full face masks can't leak..they sure can just like any mask and there's more surface area skin contact to potentially leak.

ResMed has elected to use the 24 L/min mark as the line in the sand for large leak territory. It's actually a fairly conservative line in the sand. The machine does a decent job up to around 30 L/min..once you start going past 30 it gets a bit iffy and the further you go the iffier it gets. It's not like "OMG things go directly into the toilet at 25 or 26 L/min" it doesn't work that way. It gradually slides into the toilet and gets deeper the further you go.

[DeeCPAP]

One night I took off all the headgear while asleep, so I'm
not sure if those numbers are accurate, but essentially, you're saying that I don't breathe through my mouth enough to use a FF mask? If that's the case, you've solved the problem and I'll feel more at peace. This stuff can drive ya crazy!

If some of the leak numbers shown also include mask removal leaks it makes for an even less strong of an argument for making the switch to a full face mask. There may be some leak spikes elevating the overall leak numbers.

Most of the time the DME is going by the 90/95% numbers when they say that a person is "leaking too much" for whatever reason and the 90/95% numbers sometimes don't reflect the actual situation clearly.

I have a good example of when 90/95% number can sometimes give the wrong impression in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108724&p=1036669&hi ... t#p1036669
It's a very short thread and if you have time take a look.
The leaks certainly weren't perfect but they weren't nearly as bad as the 48 L/min 95% number might lead you to believe. I sure wouldn't be switching to a different mask that I didn't particularly want even if I saw this every night (which thankfully I don't) as long as I was sleeping decently (leaks not waking me) and feeling good.

I sure wouldn't be switching to a mask I didn't want to fix maybe 5 minutes of big leak no matter how big it was.
Assuming all the big leaks you are seeing are indeed mouth breathing/opening leaks I don't think 5 minutes over 26.8 L/min leak warrants a full face mask if a person doesn't want one. Plus I doubt that 100% of the big leak is mouth related...I bet some of it is mask movement.

Do you really need a full face mask? It certainly isn't urgent based on the numbers you've shown along with the fact that you are sleeping decently for the most part and feeling decent. I sure wouldn't be going to a mask that I didn't want if I had those numbers...heck I wouldn't do it with worse numbers.

Now would it be a good idea to have a full face mask available just in case there was ever a situation where you had to do a lot of mouth breathing for some reason? Like if you had a bad allergy attack or had a cold or flu situation where there could possibly be an awful lot of mouth breathing. Sure, that's why I have the Amara View stashed away but I have yet to have a cold so bad I couldn't get my nose cleared up enough to use my nasal pillow mask and I am coming on my 8 year anniversary in May of being on cpap....and I just got the Amara View a couple of years ago. Tried it mainly on a lark because just wanted to try it...not because I had ever really needed it. Decided to keep it because it might come in handy some day.

Your leak graphs probably aren't real pretty but we don't get extra points for pretty and pretty doesn't guarantee that we are sleeping good and feeling good. My leak graphs are rarely very pretty. Every now and then I might get to pat myself on the back with a really pretty leak graph but I don't beat myself up if I don't have a real pretty leak graph. My main primary goal is to get good sleep and feel good..not to get real pretty anything.
I do suggest that you take the time to learn to evaluate the leak graph so that you can understand the numbers and what they mean and make your own determination of just how bad the leak might have been and does it really seriously impact the quality of your therapy.

5 minutes of really big leak really only affect those 5 minutes in terms of therapy effectiveness (assuming you sleep through the big leak). It doesn't put the other parts of the night in the toilet. Only the time in really big leak is maybe in the toilet.

Besides...it's not like full face masks can't leak..they sure can just like any mask and there's more surface area skin contact to potentially leak.

ResMed has elected to use the 24 L/min mark as the line in the sand for large leak territory. It's actually a fairly conservative line in the sand. The machine does a decent job up to around 30 L/min..once you start going past 30 it gets a bit iffy and the further you go the iffier it gets. It's not like "OMG things go directly into the toilet at 25 or 26 L/min" it doesn't work that way. It gradually slides into the toilet and gets deeper the further you go.

Hi Pugsy,
Thanks for all this info! It's amazing you found so much just from the few lines of numbers I posted. It's thrilling
to know I don't have to get a face mask. My only complaint is that a few hours after waking up, I'd get "hit" by
grogginess so I thought it was the mask. I'm going to save your message and reread it until I grasp it complete.
Again, thanks!