Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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raven1962
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Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by raven1962 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:04 am

Howdy from Texas! Haven't got my 1st unit, yet, but completed the sleep study. Something like 32 interruptions per hour, iirc. I don't know how that rates, on the scale, but I also breathe slower than average, so I set the stupid respiration-rate monitors off ALL the time, when I'm in the ER, or when I've had dental surgery, or other procedures.

Vygon/Boussignac C-PAP:
Different design, simpler, more straight-forward, O2 and/or Air...
https://www.vygon.com/catalog/set-cpap- ... _005561303

One of the EMT type C-PAP designs I've come across. Yes, it might drain a bottle faster, on straight O2, but is seems to be a far superior full-face/nose & mouth design, especially the virtual valve. The valve assembly has dual ports, for O2, air and supplemental O2, air and CO2 sampling, or O2 and CO2 sampling.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... 80&bih=643

Anyway, the smaller air-line routed through the headgear should be far more comfortable.

Masks: Are there any that have the valve below the chin, for a lower profile and less interference, when sleeping?

Mods: Has anyone considered the thermal/humidity inserts from ski masks, to handle the dry air, rather than using a heated vaporizer and fighting condensation/rain-out? The insert is basically a copper scrub-pad, built into a baffled insert, to help retain heat and moisture from exhaled breath, to warm and humidify the incoming one.

A silent, high-capacity filtered rotary air pump for air supply would be far quieter than the machines I've run into.
Later,
Jeff F.
Cedar Creek, TX

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by pettyfan45 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:22 am

What you are referring to is what I used in hospitals, you won't getting that because changing the oxygen tanks as much as would be needed would be expensive . You will most likely be getting a smaller home CPAP machine. It works similarly to the hospital one but instead of getting pressurized air from a tank, the home unit pressurizes the air around it and you can use a maks of your chose. You can look the company hosting this fourm, cpap.com for an overall selection of the machines and masks available.

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by raven1962 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:17 am

In the hospital, they have 2 sources. O2 and Air, both applicable to the Boussignac valve. Air supply generally being compressed air, not bottled. As long as it is filtered and regulated, it shouldn't matter. My point is that the large hose is unnecessary, as is the crappy connection/swivel placement, as well as rain-out. So, maybe we come up with a way to make a more comfortable mask, that uses a quieter compressor, and doesn't require bottled water. Would that be a bad thing? more efficient on )2 alone. HOWEVER, it has dual ports, so compressed air with supplemental O2 is an option.
Later,
Jeff F.
Cedar Creek, TX

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by grayghost4 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:25 am

You have not mentioned what machines you have tried, but a cpap is exactly what you suggest in your last line :

A silent, high-capacity filtered rotary air pump for air supply would be far quieter than the machines I've run into.
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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by BlackSpinner » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:35 am

Nobody uses those machines at home. Go to our sponsors site cpap.com and look for Resmed and Resperonics brands. Both those are top of the line and the most commonly used ones. We have software called Sleepyhead available for those machines to show you the data breathe by breathe if you want it. They are quieter then a ceiling fan and much quieter then an airconditioner. And cost a lot less then the machines you have mentioned. Most masks are designed to have oxygen bled into them.

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by raven1962 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:42 am

I give. I asked the questions I did, because I was looking for answers.

There OUGHT to be a mask roughly the size of a standard O2, or Nebulizer mask, by now. The Boussignac valve can use air, O2, or both, but uses lines like a standard O2 line, or Nebulizer air line, which can be routed up the headgear and over the headboard. The supply can come from a compressor, but I guess that doesn't count.

I have sinus issues, so I'm going to need moisture control. The heat/moisture recovery insert from ski masks would be ideal, since no rain-out and no condensation in the lines.

Maybe the pumps are quieter than what I've been around, but it sounds like the hose and mask are a problem nobody seems to want to improve on, even when there is a working model right in their local ambulance, and ER.

Guess I'll deal with whatever the VA gives me, until I can come up with something better.
Later,
Jeff F.
Cedar Creek, TX

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by Krelvin » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:55 am

raven1962 wrote:but it sounds like the hose and mask are a problem nobody seems to want to improve on, even when there is a working model right in their local ambulance, and ER.
Because those are not CPAP masks that can be used in a home. There is a huge variety of masks available for CPAP usage from Full Face Masks, to Nasal/Pillow etc... Many work with O2 as well. there are more to choose from than most people can afford to even try.

When I was last in the hospital, they provided a BiLevel CPAP machine by Respironics... not quite a home unit but similar, just bigger and on wheels. The mask was just like one for home. There is no way I would use that machine at home, there would be no room for it.
Last edited by Krelvin on Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by Goofproof » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:57 am

You are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. People are telling you what you need to know, you aren't listening to them. Jim
Use data to optimize your xPAP treatment!

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by Sonnyboy » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:07 am

raven1962 wrote:I give. I asked the questions I did, because I was looking for answers.

There OUGHT to be a mask roughly the size of a standard O2, or Nebulizer mask, by now. The Boussignac valve can use air, O2, or both, but uses lines like a standard O2 line, or Nebulizer air line, which can be routed up the headgear and over the headboard. The supply can come from a compressor, but I guess that doesn't count.

I have sinus issues, so I'm going to need moisture control. The heat/moisture recovery insert from ski masks would be ideal, since no rain-out and no condensation in the lines.

Maybe the pumps are quieter than what I've been around, but it sounds like the hose and mask are a problem nobody seems to want to improve on, even when there is a working model right in their local ambulance, and ER.

Guess I'll deal with whatever the VA gives me, until I can come up with something better.
Do you have a copy of your sleep study results? Has it been determined that you require additional oxygen? What mask was used during the study?

Many people on this forum have sinus issues, humidity issues, and/or temperature issues. No one wants rain-out. There are a lot of ways to deal with these problems and there is no one answer that works for all people. Give the forum a chance and people will come forward and share their solutions with you.

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by PoolQ » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:21 am

I am just short of 3 weeks into my machine and the sleep study said I had 29 events an hour. We are close in this process and personally I think you are in the right place. Reading everything you can find and figuring all this out, it is our ability to breathe and sleep, it's important.
Old machines were noisy and sledge hammer in their treatment. The latest batch IMHO is amazing. I can hear the air flow in the mask, but I have never heard my machine (well once, but my humidifier wasn't seated correctly). With the climate line hose I have never had rain out except once when I turned it off.
The intelligence built into these things is outstanding. They are simply pushing air down a hose and can extract diagnostic information from that.
My insurance rents the machine until paid for, so I can change to another machine anytime I want. I am using the system for 30 days before going back to the Doc, there is lots to figure out and it's not what is making the air flow happen.

Keep thinking, reading and then try out what is on the market-you have a surprising amount to figure out and everything takes at least one night to sleep with it. You have to figure out how you personally react to humidity, air temperature, can you fall asleep with the system at pressure-what pressure, can you sleep breathing out into a pressurized system-what pressure, what is the minimum pressure you need to limit events, what's the max pressure you need, do you need a delay before the pressure starts, does the auto start actually detect when you fall asleep, what mask can/do you want to use, do you need a BPAP machine, a more advanced servo system?

You will be hacking your own sleep and none of it directly, because you are asleep when it all happens. Good luck and hang in there
Sleeping MUCH better now

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by raven1962 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:06 am

I do not believe I will need O2, at least not immediately, though I may have undiagnosed COPD. The tech said 31-32 events per hour. I have chronic sinusitis, have had sinus surgery, they did not run humidity for the sleep study, which is why my sinuses dried out, cracked and bled, which is why I asked about using some sort of insert, rather than a humidifier and fighting condensation. I am a side-sleeper, partly because of my apnea and mostly because I have back problems. The whole swivel and hose is going to be a problem, which is why I asked about the Boussignac C-PAP. If I can get one of those (and I'm trying), adapt it around some sort of heat/humidity exchanger, rather than fighting a humidifier and condensation, then I won't have the problems I can see coming with the standard masks. I've done enough research to know I need to be able to ask questions, but I am asking the questions I asked, because I think there's a better way, and I'm trying to find my way to it, rather than fighting what I see as avoidable problems.

The Boussignac valve uses induced airflow, so it doesn't need a source of 100% airflow supplied. It CAN be used with air, not just O2, which can still be added. It's a constant, regulated flow, rather than some compensated flow machine. One of the problems I had in the sleep study was the machine running out of air, before I had a full breath. The last time I had to have a respiration exercise gadget, they told me I have 3 liter lung capacity, which, as I understand it, is roughly 50% greater than average, so, a standard machine is probably going to be a problem.

I'm just trying to sort and prevent as many of the problems as I can.
Later,
Jeff F.
Cedar Creek, TX

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by chunkyfrog » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:25 am

Please let go of all those preconceived notions you have, and do some READING.
Cpap is/can be so much simpler than you imagine. REALLY!
My mask is much smaller than any used in the ER, and my machine is compact and quiet.

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by pettyfan45 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:26 am

raven1962 wrote:I do not believe I will need O2, at least not immediately, though I may have undiagnosed COPD. The tech said 31-32 events per hour. I have chronic sinusitis, have had sinus surgery, they did not run humidity for the sleep study, which is why my sinuses dried out, cracked and bled, which is why I asked about using some sort of insert, rather than a humidifier and fighting condensation. I am a side-sleeper, partly because of my apnea and mostly because I have back problems. The whole swivel and hose is going to be a problem, which is why I asked about the Boussignac C-PAP. If I can get one of those (and I'm trying), adapt it around some sort of heat/humidity exchanger, rather than fighting a humidifier and condensation, then I won't have the problems I can see coming with the standard masks. I've done enough research to know I need to be able to ask questions, but I am asking the questions I asked, because I think there's a better way, and I'm trying to find my way to it, rather than fighting what I see as avoidable problems.

The Boussignac valve uses induced airflow, so it doesn't need a source of 100% airflow supplied. It CAN be used with air, not just O2, which can still be added. It's a constant, regulated flow, rather than some compensated flow machine. One of the problems I had in the sleep study was the machine running out of air, before I had a full breath. The last time I had to have a respiration exercise gadget, they told me I have 3 liter lung capacity, which, as I understand it, is roughly 50% greater than average, so, a standard machine is probably going to be a problem.

I'm just trying to sort and prevent as many of the problems as I can.
If you do end up getting diagnosed with COPD and need supplemental oxygen then many different home machines and masks can support that. Like we have been trying to tell you Vygon/Boussignac are for hospital use only, you can't go buy it for home use.

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by HoseCrusher » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:29 am

Interesting...

I use an older machine and it is only capable of around 40 liters a minute.

Are you indicating that with your 3 liter lung capacity you are taking a full deep breath followed by a full exhale every 5 seconds? While asleep?

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Re: Newbie w/questions: Vygon/Boussignac CPAP, etc.

Post by PoolQ » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:30 am

fighting condensation- with a heated hose this is not an issue, nothing to fight
rather than a humidifier - these things don't just set humidity, they also set air temperature, nice feature
The whole swivel and hose is going to be a problem-look into hose support methods, lots of them on amazon and ebay. I got mine for $8 and it works great side, back whatever

Is there room for an improved system, you bet. Is it important that you take ownership of your treatment and do your best to foresee potential problems, you bet.
You will want to develop something better and not just another way to do something that is already available, you can't do this without trying what is out there. Take what they offer you and then start evaluating it and work to make it better.

By the way, constant regulated flow is old school and many people can't tolerate it. If you have central apnea, then it will not treat your condition at all. I really don't think you should go that direction. You have more homework to do.
Sleeping MUCH better now