Negative home tests, a dud?

[jnk]

Palerider, Don't confuse the two concepts of "serious" and "urgent." Just sayin'.

Although OSA may not technically be what they die from, as listed by the coroner, it can still be the cause of many of things people die from, as listed by the coroner.

And just because the docs don't always recognize the seriousness, that doesn't mean the rest of us have to make the same mistake.

Problem is that moderate-to-severe OSA is often classed the same as mild-to-moderate. Both are serious. Both should be considered urgent. But only one of them sometimes is--usually when it has already done serious damage of some sort.

If a working man has sought help for OSA and falls asleep at the wheel on the way to work and thus dies before testing/treatment, does all the blame fall on him? Or should the system be held partly responsible?

I don't know. That's a question for the docs and lawyers to sort out. And I'm neither.

[Julie]

T&S - you said something interesting... that an SO2 of 91% was on the border of being "too high". I wonder if that was just a typing mistake or if you think SO2's should be lower... because if you do, you've got it backwards. Anything above 90 (or some say 88) is considered to be normal, ok, decent, etc.. but anything below is a problem. Is it possible that you've been trying to get your 02 below 90 on purpose? I hope not - that would be a big mistake!

[tiredandscared]

T&S - you said something interesting... that an SO2 of 91% was on the border of being "too high". I wonder if that was just a typing mistake or if you think SO2's should be lower... because if you do, you've got it backwards. Anything above 90 (or some say 88) is considered to be normal, ok, decent, etc.. but anything below is a problem. Is it possible that you've been trying to get your 02 below 90 on purpose? I hope not - that would be a big mistake!

Uhm no: 91% was measured with the embletta, as the lowest oxygen saturation. The average was 96.3.

Who'd want to have Sleep apnea or UARS? If i didn't fit most of the symptoms of sleep apnea/UARS. I'd not be posting here. It's like feeding yourself until you get pre-diabetic. Who'd want to do that? And 91 is low enough to be considered a hypnoapnea. My average hypnoapneas lasted 54 seconds. While apneas lasted 10 seconds. But for it to be classified as hypnoapnea that poses health issues, it would need to go below 90%. Anything below 85 will start to cause singificant problems. According to medical encyclopedia and books, that below 80% and you'll get definitive brain damage.

[palerider]

I'd rather have a broken bone(that can mold and heal) than something as devious as OSA.

it's still not severe. would you rather wait for a few months to get your broken arm treated, or get your OSA treated?

I never even implied that it's not important to get it taken care of, but it's not time critical like, so many other medical conditions are, that's all.

[tiredandscared]

I'd rather have a broken bone(that can mold and heal) than something as devious as OSA.

it's still not severe. would you rather wait for a few months to get your broken arm treated, or get your OSA treated?

I never even implied that it's not important to get it taken care of, but it's not time critical like, so many other medical conditions are, that's all.

Risk of permanent damage to your cognition is more disabling than a typical bone fracture. Aslong as you don't have a related complicating disorder, most bones heal well. Worst case scenerio, it heals poorly, gets misaligned(which is fixable), or becomes a weak spot. But it's not the end of the world. If you damage your intellectual faculities however, there is no way to regenerate it. Most athletes have fractures or ligament tears atleast once, they seem to do fine.

Here are my test results:

[palerider]

Risk of permanent damage to your cognition is more disabling than a typical bone fracture. Aslong as you don't have a related complicating disorder, most bones heal well. Worst case scenerio, it heals poorly, gets misaligned(which is fixable), or becomes a weak spot.

you are completely missing the point.

you've had OSA for months, years... it's not an emergency to get it treated right now.

if you have a broken leg, it's more important to get that taken care of than it is to get your osa taken care of.

they seem to do fine.

*AFTER* they are medically treated.

i never said that you shouldn't get it taken care of, you're misinterpreting what I've said.

go into an emergency room with a stuffy nose and see if you don't get treated AFTER someone with a high fever.

it's about triage, it's about priorities. it's about the big picture. OSA isn't a priority over the critical things that will kill you or cause permanent damage if they're not taken care of RIGHT NOW, so, it has to wait. if you don't get OSA treated for a month, or two more, well, it kinda sucks, but it isn't going to make a lot of difference. if you don't get your broken leg or burst appendix taken care of for a couple months... well, then what? permanent disability and death. that's all I have to say on the matter.

[49er]

Some people have resting baseline oxygen saturation of 88%. Are you saying they are all brain damaged...?

Sleepstar, I am perplexed by this because according to Mayo Clinic, anything below a saturation of 90 is considered to be low with 95 to 100 being considered normal.

An approximate blood oxygen level can also be estimated using a pulse oximeter — a small device that clips on your finger. Though the pulse oximeter actually measures the saturation of oxygen in your blood, the results are often used as an estimate of blood oxygen levels. Normal pulse oximeter readings range from 95 to 100 percent, under most circumstances. Values under 90 percent are considered low.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/hypo ... m-20050930

For it to be a hypopnea, your oxygen saturation needs to drop by 3% (or 4% depending on the laboratory) and/or an arousal. This is 3% less than what your oxygen saturation was just before the hypopnea - not from the average of whole night. I am unsure why you would say "it needs to be less than 90% to cause health issues". Where is your reference for this?

Hmm, if I remember correctly, one scoring method of hypopneas doesn't depend on an O2 desaturation because many people with sleep apnea have been shown not to have desaturations but still have big time apnea. Morbius or anyone else, can you help me out here?

49er

[zoocrewphoto]

if you completely stop breathing, gasp for air . It's an apnea. It's physically viewable. I know i probably had alot of hypnoapneas. But i didn't see anything that clearly resembled an apnea. Snoring alone won't constitute sleep apnea. There has to be a measurable stop(oximeter, airflow, EEG) or a visible(struggling to breath, gasping for air, breathing stops). There are probably some apnea patterns that more subtle.

My mom does NOT gasp for air. She simply stops breathing, sometimes for over a minute. She does NOT snore either. And it is obstructive sleep apnea. Her airway closes without any obvious sounds or signs. She simply looks dead. We used to stand there and watch her to make sure that she really wasn't dead. Then we would see her chest move and think, oh yes, she's breathing. Just didn't see it before. It wasn't until I saw the graph of her trial with my machine that I saw just how severe she really is. She had a cluster of long events, and that was with a pressure of 10. Her ahi doesn't look bad because her events are long, but few. But her oxygen desats are horrid.

[sleepstar]

Hmm, if I remember correctly, one scoring method of hypopneas doesn't depend on an O2 desaturation because many people with sleep apnea have been shown not to have desaturations but still have big time apnea. Morbius or anyone else, can you help me out here?

49er

Yep, that's what I've written in my post above. For an event to be a hypopnea, it must have an oxygen desaturation of 3% (or 4% depending on the laboratory) OR an arousal (3 seconds of an increase in brain activity) OR both of these.

I keep having to edit my posts, the predictive text on the Tapatalk app isn't great

[49er]

Hmm, if I remember correctly, one scoring method of hypopneas doesn't depend on an O2 desaturation because many people with sleep apnea have been shown not to have desaturations but still have big time apnea. Morbius or anyone else, can you help me out here?

49er

Yep, that's what I've written in my post above. For an event to be a hypopnea, it must have an oxygen desaturation of 3% (or 4% depending on the laboratory)OR an arousal (3 seconds of an increase in brain activity) OR both of these.

I keep having to edit my posts, the predictive text on the Tapatalk app isn't great

Thanks for clarifying that.

[sleepstar]

...
...Socialized medicine is best for treating serious cases and common issues. It's not good when dealing with ambiguity.

I beg to differ... OSA/UARS is serious shit.

in the overall scheme of thing, it really isn't.

compare it to cancer, heart attacks, broken bones, etc etc etc.

things that will kill a person in sort order.

in the medical triage system of taking care of what will kill a person fastest, OSA isn't near the top of the list.

Sure, but OSA can cause disability(mental impairment, chronic sleepiness) that can even be permanent and non-negible if not treated fast enough. Every severe/moderate case of it that go undiagnosed, can cause people to become disabled(unable to work, because of brain damage or lack of energy). In the most severe cases, people can die from suffocation. It's not exactly a post viral cough or scrape wound. I'd rather have a broken bone(that can mold and heal) than something as devious as OSA.

Of course it's important to treat OSA. The way you've written that though just provokes fear in those who are newly diagnosed and do not fully understand the disorder yet.

[sleepstar]

I think I'm missing something, tiredandscared. You are provoking a lot of fear and appear to be stressing yourself about this. Your results technically say you do not have sleep apnea.

[sleepstar]

A home sleep study CAN prove that you have OSA. (Reliable positive.) So it is a cheap "test" that can allow insurance to pay somewhat gladly.

A home sleep test CANNOT prove that you do not have OSA. (Can't deliver negative findings, other than "don't know/not sure/couldn't find out.") That it is why it can be a waste of time and money for many patients.

In other words, if you have symptoms but home test doesn't find positively, you should be given a more comprehensive test that can actually rule out OSA. Many docs and bean counters do not understand that about home tests, it seems.

I honestly am not sure if i have it or not. I viewed footage of myself sleeping, for 40 minutes. Didn't notice many apneas. A friend of mine told me that people with snoring can have overlapping symptoms with sleep apnea. the doctor told me i have it borderline lying supine. But the oxygen desat was 91%, so it's exactly on the border. If i gets any worse probably will have it fully. My major symptoms, really are: Lack of concentration, poor fragmented sleep, fatigue. Assuming the AHIs were completely off, even if i go purely by desats, 91% is bad, but not to the point of real sleep apnea. But then again, i'm not sure what my desats are at the moment. I wish i could get a hospital oximeter. It would make my life easier

To be frank, recording yourself isn't going to help. It isn't about what you look like when you are asleep. Please get another opinion if you do not agree with the current one.

[palerider]

I think I'm missing something, tiredandscared. You are provoking a lot of fear and appear to be stressing yourself about this. Your results technically say you do not have sleep apnea.

I'm not the only one that's starting to wonder of T&S is just trolling us.

[grayghost4]