Behavior in this Forum

[Elle]

The best way to judge whether a party was a success is if everyone is having a good time.

[robysue]

First:

A Big +1 to Madalot for this response: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=105490&start=30#p998564

And a Big +1 to Pugsy for this response: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=105490&start=30#p998581

That said, let me add my two cents.

When Papit started this thread with a quote from what I had posted to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=105449&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p997922, I hoped that Papit's thread might quietly sink to the second page instead of stirring the pot further. But, alas, I didn't actually expect that to happen. However, I did purposely not respond immediately.

I want to make two things crystal clear before writing anything else:

1. The owners of cpap.com have chosen to keep this forum essentially unmoderated, and I respect their choice. I have participated through the years at cpaptalk.com and apneaboard.com, as well as the old apneasupport.org. Each of these boards has its own place and its own personality, and each believes that is it the "best" cpap support forum around. The apneaboard.com forum is strictly moderated by official "moderators", but this one is NOT. And I like the fact that this board is self-moderated---as in it is up to us posters to keep things under control. In other words, I like the fact that the owners of cpap.com expect us to act like grownups around here. And there is information available here that is routinely NOT available at other forums because that information violates the other forums' rules and hence is moderated out of existence.
2. I understand the need for "tough love" and I am not afraid to hit someone upside the head with the proverbial 2 x 4, but (like Pugsy), I prefer to not drag that out as my first response to a new poster who is clearly in trouble and asking for help. But whacking someone over the head with the 2 x 4 is NOT the same as resorting to personally attacking or making fun of the poster. If all you can say to a poster is something that boils down to rude, nasty ways of saying You're nutty.; or why do you continue to post?; or some clever picture that conveys your contempt for the poster, you are NOT demonstrating "tough love" and you are NOT using an effective 2 x 4. What you are doing is mercilessly teasing the poster (at best) and out right bullying the poster (at worst).

Having made those two things clear, I do think cpaptalk.com has a problem right now and that I think we do (unintentionally) intimidate newbies and lurkers any time a thread that starts out with typical newbie questions deteriorates into several pages of useless name calling, insult trading, and stupid attempts at humor where the OP is being made into the butt of the jokes.

In this thread and others recently posted we have the following as evidence that our collective behavior can be off putting to newbies:

• Player, who joined 2/23/2015 and has 25 posts as of 5/3/2015):

  I am not up to speed on the issues here, but a few months ago I got a machine and joined this forum and another apnea forum. I found this forum nasty and rude, not just to me, but the overall tone of the board. So I never come here. I did just now because it was open on my browser from when I joined. Interesting that my sense of this place is shared by others.

• Pugsy in relaying a PM sent her way:

  I really try to go by the "if you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all adage"....sometimes I fail because sometimes a 2 X 4 is needed but I don't drag out the wood unless I am really pushed hard. I am human and sometimes I can get just as ugly as the next person. Not something I am all that proud of though.
  
  I got this in a private message from a newbie
  

  Do not want to be a bother! Seen what happens to bothersome people on the site.

  Seeing this from a newbie and seeing some of the bickering and fighting and mudslinging that goes on here saddens me because we pride ourselves on being the "best" cpap help forum and if this is what newbies see and feel here....it's pretty sad.
  Just one newbie feeling like they can't ask a question because of being afraid of being piled on for being a nuisance is one too many IMHO.

• Postitnote, who joined on Feb. 14, 2015 and has 227 posts to date:

  Reminds me of high school cliques once in a while. I felt a go away vibe when I first posted but the members who welcomed me made more of an impact.

• Cancun, who joined on 4/25/2015 and has 14 posts to date:

  Folks,
  

  And I would ask those of you who continue to tease or make fun of Enchanter to think about this: Will our treatment of people like Enchanted make confused, sleepy, tired, and exhausted lurkers who are grappling with the idea that they may have OSA feel like they will be welcomed or ridiculed if they finally get brave enough to post something with a title along the lines of "Might I have apnea?"?

  Thanks Robysue, I am new and have posted a couple questions but have been reading a lot of posts and of course been following the Enchanter posts and while he seemed annoying I found the responses that became so hateful unnecessary. It is easier to just stop responding to him rather than to berate him. Even reading his posts you can tell he is truly confused and has some issues. I did notice how patient you and a few others were with him and appreciated that as I started to wonder if this would be the place for me once my insurance company and doctors got on the same page and my CPAP experience began. I know I will have a lot of questions and hope this will be the place for me. (Emphasis added)

• Darth Lady, who joined on 2/2/2015 and has 125 posts to date:

  +1 for thanks to robysue. I've gotten kind of scared to ask questions here, seeing some of the responses to enchanter . I wouldn't want to ask something that would get the board riled up at me.

And I'll close with reflecting on this quote from Pugsy:

Just one newbie feeling like they can't ask a question because of being afraid of being piled on for being a nuisance is one too many IMHO.

I wish Dori was still here to send the "children" to time out corners when things start getting ugly and here lately they get pretty ugly real fast. Sometimes we spend more time bickering and slinging the F bomb you (which to me breaks my heart to read) than we we actually helping someone.

I agree with Pugsy: If we loose even one newbie or lurker because they're afraid of being teased, bullied, or treated like they are a nuisance, that's one too many.

And things do seem to have gotten a lot uglier recently. I took a six month sabbatical from cpaptalk last fall and winter due to a bunch of things in my private life. And I was quite taken aback by the outright cruelty that I see in the bickering and sling the F-bomb that I have been seeing ever since I returned in early March. While this kind of behavior has always been present on cpaptalk.com in the 4.5 years I've been a member, it quantitatively seems to be greater now than at any time I can remember. And that is a shame.

[Madalot]

Robysue --

There's nothing more to add to your post except --

You are absolutely correct in EVERYTHING you said.

Thank you.

[robysue]

At least on these forums, it's JUST words. And on that note....

The written word is SO subject to interpretation. I'm thinking back to Enchanter (what this thread is about really) and when he said the woman told him "he didn't sleep the whole night" -- there are two, VERY DIFFERENT ways to interpret that:

Didn't sleep at all the entire night....OR

Slept, but not through the entire night

Those are NOT the same and the response to those isn't the same. And it wasn't clear what SHE meant, only how HE interpreted it.

Madalot,

This is an excellent example of what I've been working with Enchanter on in my PMs to him. With his total collection of problems (that do go beyond suspected OSA), it is quite hard for Enchanter to tease out alternate meanings for what is said to him. And it does take patience and persistence (that I don't expect most people here to have) to deal with telling someone multiple times, "You misinterpreted this statement. It may mean "stuff stuff stuff" instead of "junk junk junk."

[Sonnyboy]

The sad thing is that now people are bullying the people they say are the bullies. I guess my take is that we have to mellow out a bit. Be the bigger person either way and walk away. Let's start fresh!

Hi, my name is Jodi. I'm very glad to be here! I've learned a lot and met some amazing folks. Thanks for all the help I have received.

And btw, if Morbious sees this, 2 days ago I found a groundhog living in our yard. It's so cute and fluffy! I hope it's a boy so we don't have babies. It made a burrow next to the garage that's about 10 feet long. He comes out if I call "kitty, kitty". He plays nicely with the birds, squirrels, and bunnies. Can't wait till next groundhog day to get a really local weather forecast!

+1

[palerider]

yours, however...

And, palerider, your behavior also has not changed. You are always ready to fight, palerider, and you have a hard time letting anything slide.

I usually am, and I do.

especially when the holier than thou pack decide to single me out, and quietly ignore the things that everybody else seems to get a pass with.

there were a *lot* of people that piled on enchanter because of his behavior, I thank you for actually having the decency to at least mention ONE OTHER person "and others", unlike any of the 'hate on palerider' crew. some of the worst vitriol came from those who, after your dressing down, said "oh, I'm sorry" like that makes their previous behavior just fine.

well, it doesn't.

and whether you have noticed it or not, I *AM* working on changing my behavior, though I'm not trying to become all sweet and luvyduvy. it was pointed out to me that I'd sadly become *personal* in my attacks, and that the person that was doing that pointing felt I was better than that. I agreed, and do agree, and don't want to be "mr personal attack" to use their wise words to me: "A suggestion I have is to focus your commentary on the issues that you are upset about instead of the people. You will have a bigger impact. When you attack the person, you just have them shut down and get defensive." these are not things I was ignorant of, but they are things I had lost track of.

and, yes, I get defensive when a contingent decides they're going to gang up on me.

you're a person who I have the utmost respect for. I want to lash out at the coward that recently snuck around and tried to enlist a secret bunch of people to get me banned, I want to lash out at the people who've told me to die. I want to lash out at the people that have nothing but hateful things to say, that contribute nothing to the forum but their own nastyness. I feel they look in the mirror and type "you're such an asshole" and direct it to whoever they see as the victim of their inner hatred. but, because of the respect I have for you, I'll try and let all that slide, and not name names, and not add to the fire.

[Pugsy]

Maybe we need an ongoing "Let's duke it out" thread where we can send people who prefer to continue personal name calling & mud slinging in a thread that was supposed to be a helping thread and instead the person who asked for help has to wade through numerous snide remarks pointed at others and nothing constructive is being offered.

I know we aren't going to stop it...but maybe channel it to somewhere that isn't so much in your face as in a thread posted by someone needing help and we have to sort through 30 posts that contain nothing addressing the OP question or problem and instead are nothing more than bickering and someone hell bent on getting the last word in.
Keep the fighting separate from the helping since we aren't going to stop the fighting....

Or get Dori back here because no one dared challenge her about her "Time Outs"
It was "yes, ma'am" and that was the end of it.

Tough love and a 2X4 used to get someone's attention is one thing but this personal attacking stuff goes way beyond tough love. I know we can't all see eye to eye and I don't really expect us to but I do wish that people could/would take their fight outside. That way innocent people won't get hurt.

[BlackSpinner]

Everybody here is an adult and needs to "grow a pair" (of what ever kind you prefer to have).
If you act obnoxious be prepared to have people call you on it just like in Real Life.

Yes there is good information here but it means you have to deal with the reality of PEOPLE. It can be considered a form of payment - there is no free lunch and to get the "grail" be prepared to work for it - it makes it that much more valuable.

[chunkyfrog]

My "pair" are currently in the crosshairs.
I sincerely hope the new models are better behaved.

[Julie]

We're sending all our good karma that those bullets are blanks.

[Gasper62]

"there were a *lot* of people that piled on enchanter because of his behavior" - I was one of them, mea culpa.

[palerider]

My "pair" are currently in the crosshairs.
I sincerely hope the new models are better behaved.

well, at least the new perkies won't try to kill you!! *hugs*

[chunkyfrog]

We're sending all our good karma that those bullets are blanks.

Thank you. Having heard the MRI was clean, I only need to wait for the pathology report.
May others in the same situations enjoy the support and good news I've enjoyed thus far.
I too have been mean-spirited; and my own journey is no excuse. I am sorry,
but the backstage hustle will not be forgotten, and no forgiveness was requested or tendered.

[Tatooed Lady]

My "pair" are currently in the crosshairs.
I sincerely hope the new models are better behaved.

The new pair aren't home grown...you get to pick the make and model...you'll have the perkiest hoots around in the old folks home!

Everything is cyclical. Apparently spring is the season to get everything aired out and start fresh. And while PR can be harsh, he can also be a huge sweetie. And as part of "his posse," I "get" his attitude. I don't have to agree with it, and he is a big boy...stands up for himself. But I'm pissed at him...I never got the "join my posse" memo OR badge. PR, you got some 'splainin' to do.

[jlaw3x7]

I actually like the drama. I like the fact that enchanter is free to make 50 threads a day. I like the fact that so many interesting questions are asked here. Maybe it has some anger issues but hey... that might be the sleep deprivation ... I can relate... This board/forum is very introspective and I like that too. I like that there are saints here that keep us on the right path. It is not perfect, but overall it's a fine place. I feel like it will help me.