Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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archangle
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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by archangle » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:47 pm

Enchanter wrote:Sleep Apnea is an .....
Relax. Stop posting.

Read the stickies at the top of the forum, and my Useful Links at the bottom of this post to prepare yourself for being sure you get a good CPAP machine.

Wait for your sleep study results. Then concentrate on getting the right CPAP machine. Use the CPAP. Fix whatever problems you have. Then after a few months, if it's not working, try harder to make it work. Then if it's not working, start looking for different or additional problems.

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by palerider » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:58 pm

Enchanter wrote:Wait let me get this straight. You said to not have Plans B and C. But now you are suggesting me another plan? You see why I get confused?
you get confused because you never accept anything that anybody says, all you do is question, and argue.

your frenetic spinning activity, a mental whirling dervish that gets you nowhere, is a complete waste of time.

you're wasting all of your time, AND OURS with these 'what if I don't have what I think I have, what then? chinese fire drill. the time to investigate 'what do I do now' is *after* you find out that you don't have OSA.

if you have OSA, all this is a total waste, and detracting from your actually finding out whether you have it or not.

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by kaiasgram » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:01 pm

Nick Danger wrote:Taking Kaiasgram up on her offer of providing you the names of some good counselors in your area would be a really good idea. I'm not going to insult you by pretending to diagnose you based on your posts to this forum, but it looks to me like the way you think about things gets in your way. A good counselor or therapist could help you with that (with or without medication - preferably without). I suspect the kinds of feedback you are getting in this forum are similar to those you get in your everyday life. I wonder why you get that kind of feedback?
Hi Nick -- Just to clarify, the recommendations I offered were for reading material which I provided later in that same thread. Enchanter has shown no interest or inclination to seek out a mental health professional so I would not pursue gathering therapist referrals for him at this time. In fact I'm convinced that people's staying engaged with him on this forum -- no matter how well intended -- is keeping him distracted and disinclined to seek the help he really needs and which no one here is in a position to provide. I have compassion for his suffering and I feel strongly that the most helpful thing all of us can do at this point is to draw the line, stop responding to all his posts, put an end to these dysfunctional circular dialogues, and hope that he will then turn his attention to getting the appropriate professional (medical and mental health) care.

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by Enchanter » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:39 pm

kaiasgram wrote:
Nick Danger wrote:Taking Kaiasgram up on her offer of providing you the names of some good counselors in your area would be a really good idea. I'm not going to insult you by pretending to diagnose you based on your posts to this forum, but it looks to me like the way you think about things gets in your way. A good counselor or therapist could help you with that (with or without medication - preferably without). I suspect the kinds of feedback you are getting in this forum are similar to those you get in your everyday life. I wonder why you get that kind of feedback?
Hi Nick -- Just to clarify, the recommendations I offered were for reading material which I provided later in that same thread. Enchanter has shown no interest or inclination to seek out a mental health professional so I would not pursue gathering therapist referrals for him at this time. In fact I'm convinced that people's staying engaged with him on this forum -- no matter how well intended -- is keeping him distracted and disinclined to seek the help he really needs and which no one here is in a position to provide. I have compassion for his suffering and I feel strongly that the most helpful thing all of us can do at this point is to draw the line, stop responding to all his posts, put an end to these dysfunctional circular dialogues, and hope that he will then turn his attention to getting the appropriate professional (medical and mental health) care.

Well I had a psychologist and a psychiatrist(s) for several years in the past. I know what they do. They just ask you questions and take notes. Then they make the same kind of generic suggestions that you expect to hear. I don't see how that helps? For example if I do have OSA, they cannot help me with OSA. They can make all the suggestions they want, but it gets you nowhere. They just don't know everything.
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49er
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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by 49er » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:49 am

Well I had a psychologist and a psychiatrist(s) for several years in the past. I know what they do. They just ask you questions and take notes. Then they make the same kind of generic suggestions that you expect to hear. I don't see how that helps? For example if I do have OSA, they cannot help me with OSA. They can make all the suggestions they want, but it gets you nowhere. They just don't know everything.
Have you ever had a neuropsych test for possible neurological issues that could be effecting your perception of various issues and causing you great difficulties such as the anxiety that Kaisgram has mentioned? If you haven't, it might be something to look into.

By the way, if you don't understand why I made the suggestion, feel free to PM me and I can go into further detail. For various reasons, I prefer to go that route vs. discussing this on the forum.

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Julie
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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by Julie » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:12 am

Did you ever try following those "same kind of generic suggestions"? Did you actually give them a real chance? Because if all you're going to do is put down everyone's ideas, why ask for help in the first place? Not only are you wasting our time, but your own.

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by novatom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:33 am

Enchanter wrote:
novatom wrote:I was diagnosed with moderate SA last fall but I wouldn't have gone for a sleep test if it hadn't been for my chronic insomnia. I didn't have the typical symptoms of SA and CPAP has not had much of an effect on my insomnia. But nevertheless I am thankful for the diagnosis as it revealed a hidden danger that could have had a much more detrimental effect on my health.

It could have had detrimental effects, but have you received any benefits?
Nothing that I can really point to. I'm in my fourth month now and while I saw some improvement in my sleeping patterns early on (getting back to sleep in a reasonable amount of time), I eventually reverted to my old sleeping patterns, which was very disappointing. I don't even really feel much more well rested in the morning anymore either. I got the best reaction after titration, the best feeling I'd had in years. I have yet to regain that feeling since. I've said this in several other posts here, but I am convinced now that, at least for me, there is zero connection between my sleep apnea and my insomnia. I hope to eventually be proven wrong, but for now, I just take comfort in that I am at least reducing the negative effects of SA. My average AHI over the past 4 months is 5.05, higher than I would like and I am going to insist to my doctor on my next follow up in June that I should have my pressure increased.

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Julie
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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by Julie » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:43 am

Novatom - why don't you just increase it yourself like the rest of us do?

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by novatom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:13 am

Julie wrote:Novatom - why don't you just increase it yourself like the rest of us do?
I'd rather not get a long lecture from my doctor at my next visit. I'm sure he would not be pleased. I'd rather wait until my next follow up in June to get his opinion. I just believe that my doctor knows best in this situation.

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by palerider » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:21 am

novatom wrote:
Julie wrote:Novatom - why don't you just increase it yourself like the rest of us do?
I'd rather not get a long lecture from my doctor at my next visit. I'm sure he would not be pleased. I'd rather wait until my next follow up in June to get his opinion. I just believe that my doctor knows best in this situation.
so, how long have you been working for your doctor? does he pay you well to be his patient?

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by 49er » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:30 am

novatom wrote:
Julie wrote:Novatom - why don't you just increase it yourself like the rest of us do?
I'd rather not get a long lecture from my doctor at my next visit. I'm sure he would not be pleased. I'd rather wait until my next follow up in June to get his opinion. I just believe that my doctor knows best in this situation.
novatom,

Your doctor will get over it and if he doesn't, then it is time to find someone else. By the way, I don't think my current sleep doctor was happy with my changing the pressures initially. But she has come around.

And if you wait until June, that means you have to suffer through several more weeks of crappy therapy when with this board's help, you could start dialing in the right pressure now. Just saying.

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by Pugsy » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:56 am

Perhaps before blindly suggesting "increase the pressure" it might be more educational to first learn the primary composition of that slightly elevated AHI. If it's mainly centrals (Clear Airway) then more pressure won't fix it anyway and could potentially make it worse.

Just saying....when you are wanting to try to fix something...make sure what you are wanting to fix is fixable with the tools at hand.

I don't remember if I have seen a report from novatom that shows the even category breakdown.

Some people aren't comfortable with changing the settings and that's okay...but everyone should be comfortable with at least looking at the data that the software reports make available...so novatom...do you use the software?
novatom wrote:I'd rather wait until my next follow up in June to get his opinion. I just believe that my doctor knows best in this situation.

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by robysue » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:08 am

novatom,

First, I would encourage you to start your own thread about your problems. That way your discussion won't get lost here.

But I do have a couple of things to add to what others have said about your situation.

1) I understand your reluctance to simply increase your pressure on your own. When I was still a newbie, I too was very reluctant to change my pressure settings on my own. I'm still not completely comfortable doing it, but will now do it if there is some kind of experiment that I want to run. It's ok to prefer to work with your doctor when talking about changing the pressure settings. It's also ok to be prefer just doing things on your own, the way a lot of folks around here are.

2) You write that your average AHI = 5.05 over the last four months. Yes, that's a tad higher than we'd like to see and than your doc would like to see. But the average AHI over four months does not tell the whole story. Look at the trend of the nightly AHI numbers over that time: Are they going UP? (bad news) Are they going DOWN (good news)? Are they pretty constant for the whole four months? Or are they jumping all over the place---as in one or two nights will be good and then the next night or two will be bad? Because what your doc is going to recommend as far as the pressure setting goes is going to depend on the long term trend in the AHI numbers. It's also important to realize that the kind of events being recorded is important. If most of the recorded events are OAs and Hs, the doc is likely to be willing to increase the pressure. If most of the recorded events are CAs, the doc won't want you to increase the pressure.

But what I really want to talk about are these comments:
novatom wrote:I was diagnosed with moderate SA last fall but I wouldn't have gone for a sleep test if it hadn't been for my chronic insomnia. I didn't have the typical symptoms of SA and CPAP has not had much of an effect on my insomnia. But nevertheless I am thankful for the diagnosis as it revealed a hidden danger that could have had a much more detrimental effect on my health.
and
novatom wrote:I'm in my fourth month now and while I saw some improvement in my sleeping patterns early on (getting back to sleep in a reasonable amount of time), I eventually reverted to my old sleeping patterns, which was very disappointing. I don't even really feel much more well rested in the morning anymore either. I got the best reaction after titration, the best feeling I'd had in years. I have yet to regain that feeling since. I've said this in several other posts here, but I am convinced now that, at least for me, there is zero connection between my sleep apnea and my insomnia. I hope to eventually be proven wrong,
As Morbius has said under many other aliases: CPAP doesn't fix BAD sleep. CPAP fixes OSA, and if OSA is the only cause of the bad sleep, then CPAP will fix the bad sleep. But if the bad sleep is being caused by OSA and other things like insomnia, then CPAP ain't going to fix all of your sleep problems.

In other words, you're probably right: Your insomnia is/was probably NOT a direct of untreated OSA. And now that the OSA is under control, the insomnia is continuing to cause your sleep to be worse than you'd like it to be.

So: What kinds of things have you done to try to manage the insomnia in the past? How well did they work?

At your June appointment with the sleep doc, I would strongly urge you to talk about the insomnia as a separate issue from the my AHI indicates my pressure needs to be increased discussion.

And before that insomnia discussion with your sleep doc, you need to do some thinking about what kind of help you might want from him in terms of insomnia management. And that depends on what kinds of things you've tried in the past and whether they've not worked at all; worked for a while and then became ineffective; sort of work to make things marginally better; or don't work at all. And in order for the insomnia discussion to be helpful to you, you'll also need to be able to describe the problem accurately. You might want to keep a sleep log for a couple of weeks or a month or so before the June appointment so that you have an accurate record of how bad the insomnia is. A sleep log usually includes the following information for each night:
  • bedtime
  • estimated sleep latency---i.e. estimated time it took you to get to sleep at the beginning of the night
  • estimated number of wakes. You do NOT need to record what time the wakes occurred. You do NOT need to estimate how long it took to get back to sleep after each wake.
  • Time out of bed---what time you got out of bed the next morning with no intention of trying to go back to sleep.
  • Estimated total sleep time for the whole night. You do NOT need this to be an accurate estimate. You should NOT be looking at the clock all night long. Rather just give this your best shot. If you think you got about 3 1/2 hours of sleep during the whole night, just say 3.5 hours.
  • Any notes on waking up: Are you feeling particularly tired? Somewhat rested? Know you had one really long wake because you remember a wake that it seemed like it took forever to get back to sleep? That stuff goes here.
Except for recording the bedtime, all the other information should be recorded in the morning shortly after you wake up. Except for looking at the clock to establish bedtime and "time out of bed", you should NOT be looking at a clock for any of the other data.

Best of luck in taming your Insomnia Monster

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by novatom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:20 am

palerider wrote:
novatom wrote:
Julie wrote:Novatom - why don't you just increase it yourself like the rest of us do?
I'd rather not get a long lecture from my doctor at my next visit. I'm sure he would not be pleased. I'd rather wait until my next follow up in June to get his opinion. I just believe that my doctor knows best in this situation.
so, how long have you been working for your doctor? does he pay you well to be his patient?
I knew I would get slammed over this. I don't care, I still believe the doctor is the expert.

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Re: Is there any disorder similar to Sleep Apnea?

Post by novatom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:29 am

robysue wrote:novatom,

First, I would encourage you to start your own thread about your problems. That way your discussion won't get lost here.

But I do have a couple of things to add to what others have said about your situation.

1) I understand your reluctance to simply increase your pressure on your own. When I was still a newbie, I too was very reluctant to change my pressure settings on my own. I'm still not completely comfortable doing it, but will now do it if there is some kind of experiment that I want to run. It's ok to prefer to work with your doctor when talking about changing the pressure settings. It's also ok to be prefer just doing things on your own, the way a lot of folks around here are.

2) You write that your average AHI = 5.05 over the last four months. Yes, that's a tad higher than we'd like to see and than your doc would like to see. But the average AHI over four months does not tell the whole story. Look at the trend of the nightly AHI numbers over that time: Are they going UP? (bad news) Are they going DOWN (good news)? Are they pretty constant for the whole four months? Or are they jumping all over the place---as in one or two nights will be good and then the next night or two will be bad? Because what your doc is going to recommend as far as the pressure setting goes is going to depend on the long term trend in the AHI numbers. It's also important to realize that the kind of events being recorded is important. If most of the recorded events are OAs and Hs, the doc is likely to be willing to increase the pressure. If most of the recorded events are CAs, the doc won't want you to increase the pressure.

But what I really want to talk about are these comments:
novatom wrote:I was diagnosed with moderate SA last fall but I wouldn't have gone for a sleep test if it hadn't been for my chronic insomnia. I didn't have the typical symptoms of SA and CPAP has not had much of an effect on my insomnia. But nevertheless I am thankful for the diagnosis as it revealed a hidden danger that could have had a much more detrimental effect on my health.
and
novatom wrote:I'm in my fourth month now and while I saw some improvement in my sleeping patterns early on (getting back to sleep in a reasonable amount of time), I eventually reverted to my old sleeping patterns, which was very disappointing. I don't even really feel much more well rested in the morning anymore either. I got the best reaction after titration, the best feeling I'd had in years. I have yet to regain that feeling since. I've said this in several other posts here, but I am convinced now that, at least for me, there is zero connection between my sleep apnea and my insomnia. I hope to eventually be proven wrong,
As Morbius has said under many other aliases: CPAP doesn't fix BAD sleep. CPAP fixes OSA, and if OSA is the only cause of the bad sleep, then CPAP will fix the bad sleep. But if the bad sleep is being caused by OSA and other things like insomnia, then CPAP ain't going to fix all of your sleep problems.

In other words, you're probably right: Your insomnia is/was probably NOT a direct of untreated OSA. And now that the OSA is under control, the insomnia is continuing to cause your sleep to be worse than you'd like it to be.

So: What kinds of things have you done to try to manage the insomnia in the past? How well did they work?

At your June appointment with the sleep doc, I would strongly urge you to talk about the insomnia as a separate issue from the my AHI indicates my pressure needs to be increased discussion.

And before that insomnia discussion with your sleep doc, you need to do some thinking about what kind of help you might want from him in terms of insomnia management. And that depends on what kinds of things you've tried in the past and whether they've not worked at all; worked for a while and then became ineffective; sort of work to make things marginally better; or don't work at all. And in order for the insomnia discussion to be helpful to you, you'll also need to be able to describe the problem accurately. You might want to keep a sleep log for a couple of weeks or a month or so before the June appointment so that you have an accurate record of how bad the insomnia is. A sleep log usually includes the following information for each night:
  • bedtime
  • estimated sleep latency---i.e. estimated time it took you to get to sleep at the beginning of the night
  • estimated number of wakes. You do NOT need to record what time the wakes occurred. You do NOT need to estimate how long it took to get back to sleep after each wake.
  • Time out of bed---what time you got out of bed the next morning with no intention of trying to go back to sleep.
  • Estimated total sleep time for the whole night. You do NOT need this to be an accurate estimate. You should NOT be looking at the clock all night long. Rather just give this your best shot. If you think you got about 3 1/2 hours of sleep during the whole night, just say 3.5 hours.
  • Any notes on waking up: Are you feeling particularly tired? Somewhat rested? Know you had one really long wake because you remember a wake that it seemed like it took forever to get back to sleep? That stuff goes here.
Except for recording the bedtime, all the other information should be recorded in the morning shortly after you wake up. Except for looking at the clock to establish bedtime and "time out of bed", you should NOT be looking at a clock for any of the other data.

Best of luck in taming your Insomnia Monster
Thank you Robysue for providing some constructive advice. I try to practice good sleep hygiene on a nightly basis. I just went through a particularly stressful time at work (which involved some traveling and late nights) recently which may have contributed to some elevated AHIs (my highest was 25 on the first night of a big trade show). I'll take your suggestions under advisement. I already know what I'm going to discuss with my doctor. I'm hoping that an increase in pressure will result in better REM stage sleep.

I did actually bring this up in a separate thread but I didn't get much response. Perhaps because I had the word "insomnia" in the headline, something that I don't find much discussion about on this board, frankly.

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