My back up power set up questions UPDATE

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PlinkerCraig
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by PlinkerCraig » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:07 pm

I'm interested in doing the measurement. I have to cobble together a shunt measurement jig. I can rip a connector from a dead HP laptop and use a dead HP laptop cord since conveniently it uses the same connector as the Respironics 60 series. My plan is to hook the Respironics DC battery cable to my deep cycle 12V battery running DC to the 560 thru my jig which will pass current through my recording ammeter. I can record amperage readings every second and then plot amperage drawn over time versus humidifier settings and maybe other variables. Ultimately the goal is to get to a reliable answer to the question "if I use it for X hours how big of a battery must I use". I would be happy to find I can haul a smaller battery than my big marine deep cycle battery when I go camping.

This should be fun. Competing with this fun project is installing a charge point for my new Ford Focus EV.

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archangle
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by archangle » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:44 pm

HoseCrusher wrote:archangle, I run into situations like this frequently. Last week I had to jump 4 vehicles. This week only 2. A loose average is 2 - 3 times a week. In each case I let the jumped vehicle recharge my jump pack and have not run into any problems so far.
If you jump start a car and then recharge the jumper battery from the vehicle, that's not the situation I'm thinking about. If the jumper battery has enough juice to start the car, it's still got a fairly good bit of charge left.

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sleep_quest
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by sleep_quest » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:45 am

PlinkerCraig: This should be fun. Competing with this fun project is installing a charge point for my new Ford Focus EV.
HMMM if it were projects between my new car and a CPAP machine I don't think the CPAP has a chance. I'm happy with whenever you get around to it.

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CapnLoki
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by CapnLoki » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:03 am

PlinkerCraig wrote:...
Has anyone done a serious measurement of the amp-hour draw of the original poster's Respironics 560 machine yet? I'm tempted to rig a fixture to measure this since I have one of the 560 machines. I'm an electrical engineer working in the test&measurement field for 30 years now so I think I know what I'm doing, but somebody here may contradict me if I get results that don't meet layman's intuition. Is it worth me taking the time to do this measurement? Let me know.
About a year ago I tried this. I used a small shunt based Amp meter, but found that the current fluctuated strongly from almost zero to over half an Amp on every breath. Worse, a small breathing change made a large current change. Since my goal was actually to measure small inverter efficiency, I pulled the hose off and measured "large leak"draw which was more stable for my purposes.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=92230&p=854963&hili ... ex#p854963

My boat has a dual amp-hour meter that I could rewire to measure my CPAP (next Spring) but I'm not sure how accurately it can track the rapid changes. Some folks have tried a Kill-A-Watt AC meter but I'm even more skeptical if its accuracy. I can verify that the 560 power usage is roughly half an Amp at moderate pressure. Reading the humidifier load is even more challenging, because you'd need a controlled humidity environment. The Resmed battery use doc can be used as a guideline, but I think Respironics does a bit better.
http://www.resmed.com/assets/documents/ ... lo_eng.pdf

I would love to know the answer, so if you have access to better gear or know a better approach, go for it!

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archangle
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by archangle » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:33 pm

PlinkerCraig wrote:Has anyone done a serious measurement of the amp-hour draw of the original poster's Respironics 560 machine yet? I'm tempted to rig a fixture to measure this since I have one of the 560 machines.
I used a Kill-a-Watt meter and got results around 30 watts average with humidifier and 10 watts without humidifier. Of course, this is AC measurement, not DC, so the DC usage would be somewhat less. That's a little less than 3 amps and 1 amps. Then a bit less depending on the efficiency of the power brick.

The power level is sort of on the low end of calculation with the Kill-a-watt, so it may be a little inaccurate. The Kill-a-Watt has a kilowatt-hour gauge, so you have to run the CPAP for a few hours, and divide kWh by hours to get kilowatts.

There are DC amp hour meters you can buy in the $50 to $60 range. I haven't used them.

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aj43
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by aj43 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:41 am

I did not measure power usage directly, but I do have some actual usage to report. I purchased a sears DieHard portable power 750 jump starter for $39. I have a respironics DC power cable that plugs into the DieHard socket. My pressure is set at a range of 8 to 12 and usually stays around 10. The DieHard has a 12AH battery. I ran for two nights (a little over 8 hrs per night) and the Diehard charge indicator still showed green at the end of two nights. Not scientific or with a whole lot of accuracy, but it assures me I can sleep at night without the generator running if power fails. Not to bad for a $40 investment. I have a PR System 1 560. I turned the heated humidifier and hose off.

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PlinkerCraig
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by PlinkerCraig » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:40 am

Wow there is great stuff here. Thanks for feedback Archangle and Capnloki.
I got up early this morning and used my PC instead of my iPad to cruise the forum and thought it would be wise to search a bit for things. I found an excellent topic that John posted 18 months ago that was a very thorough battery pack design. It is long and thorough and worth reading. Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89123

Reading Raftergirl's first-hand experience and other postings I'll predict that I will measure an average of 650mA drawn by the PRS1 Auto machine. From John's work it seems that a good thumbrule would be 10Ah per night skipping the humidifier (which leaves a generous margin for any oops and mileage variation).

I'm going to attempt to use a very nifty Agilent handheld multimeter that can record hours of readings at least once per second. If it appears that I'm undersampling the current waveform (Thanks Caploki) then I'll borrow a Keysight(was Agilent) product that can source the 12V and store current readings many times per second. This should be fun and interesting. My kit for building the cable for charging the new Ford Focus EV did not ship when I expected it to ship so I won't be building that thing this weekend . That is good news for me finishing this CPAP current draw measurement this weekend.

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sleep_quest
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by sleep_quest » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:54 pm

I know we are a particular bunch out in California but I don't understand what might be in a Minnkota Portable Battery Charger that would preclude it from being shipped to the Golden State? Anyone know?

thanks,
d

HoseCrusher
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by HoseCrusher » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:23 pm

Perhaps this explains the issues.

THERE ARE NO EXPRESS WARRANTIES OTHER THAN THESE LIMITED WARRANTIES. IN NO EVENT SHALL ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT ABILITY OR FITNESS FOR PARTICULAR PURPOSE, EXTEND BEYOND ONE YEAR FROM THE DATE OF PURCHASE. IN NO EVENT SHALL JOHNSON OUTDOORS MARINE ELECTRONICS, INC. BE LIABLE FOR INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR SPECIAL DAMAGES.

Some states do not allow limitations on how long an implied warranty lasts or the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitations and/or exclusions may not apply to you.

This warranty gives you specific legal rights
and you may also have other legal rights which vary from state to state.

©2010 Johnson Outdoors Marine Electronics, Inc.
P/N 2377136 REV D ECN 31088 11-08
Look for us on the web at http://www.minnkotamotors.com

And, of course...

“WARNING: This product contains chemical(s) known to the state of California to cause cancer and/or reproductive toxicity.”

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palerider
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by palerider » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:27 pm

maybe they don't want to festoon it with labels that say "california says this battery charger will cause cancer, make your dog glow in the dark, cause your children to grow extra unwanted body parts, and ruin your marriage.

just a guess.

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sleep_quest
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by sleep_quest » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:32 am

palerider wrote:maybe they don't want to festoon it with labels that say "california says this battery charger will cause cancer, make your dog glow in the dark, cause your children to grow extra unwanted body parts, and ruin your marriage.

just a guess.
HoseCrusher wrote:Perhaps this explains the issues.

...“WARNING: This product contains chemical(s) known to the state of California to cause cancer and/or reproductive toxicity.”
I figured it contained something that 'has been known to cause cancer' but I know other battery chargers can be/are shipped to CA so maybe it's a combination of both answers, CA labeling requirements and the product's contents.

Thanks for the quick replies Palerider and HoseCrusher.

FYI, during today's quest to purchase my back up power components I found a Magna Cart Personal Hand Truck that handles up to 150 pounds on which I'll be placing my battery and battery box so that it is more portable at Costco for $19.99 (1/2 the Amazon price). I also picked up a Duracell 175W Power Inverter for $24.99 just in case the need for it arises; it adds two USB ports and two AC outlets to the battery box set up in addition to the ones already included in the powerpack. The system is slowly coming together. I've ordered my battery box, battery tester, bungee type cords and a battery charger too so by next week I should have the initial stage up and working. Then in about 6 months or so I'll replicate some of this stuff for redundancy.

I'll post more as the project progresses.

d

http://smile.amazon.com/Magna-Cart-Pers ... hand+truck
http://smile.amazon.com/Battery-Biz-Dur ... 5+inverter

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archangle
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by archangle » Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:44 am

palerider wrote:maybe they don't want to festoon it with labels that say "california says this battery charger will cause cancer, make your dog glow in the dark, cause your children to grow extra unwanted body parts, and ruin your marriage.

just a guess.
There may also be some pseudo-envrionmental regulations about power usage as well.

I wish more people would refuse to sell to California.

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CapnLoki
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by CapnLoki » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:34 am

It has to do with the new energy efficiency rules in CA.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/battery_chargers/

The claim is that small chargers are only about 33% efficient. Frankly I'm glad one state is doing something about it, but its a shame it couldn't be done gradually and nationally.

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sleep_quest
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Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by sleep_quest » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:40 pm

archangle wrote:
There may also be some pseudo-envrionmental regulations about power usage as well.

I wish more people would refuse to sell to California.
Gee archangle, that doesn't sound very neighborly...let's keep the spirit of this topic on the helpful side. Please? As the OP looking for help, that comment defeats my purpose since I've registered that I live in CA and I'm trying to find specific back up power solutions to suit my needs.

thanks,
d

JNScoville

Re: My back up power set up questions

Post by JNScoville » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:47 pm

Has anyone used a CPAP on a solar system? One unit was described at drawing like three 75Watt bulbs. That is a huge draw on a small solar system. Charging batteries on a solar system has the same problem. We spend a lot of time at our remote cabin and neither we nor our neighbors would like to listen to our backup generator all night.