Radon anxiety and cancer with CPAP

[Pesser]

I am researching the effects of radon and other gases when using CPAP. I understand that air is being delivered to us at a higher pressure (higher rate) than normal. But the question is are we breathing in more air? It seems that the “tidal volume” may well be the same as normal breathing; with the increasing air delivery going to keep the airway open and exhausted.

I am studying the Linear no Threshold Theory (LNT) in radiation physics. This is clearly a fraud but the EPA is adopting the (LNT). If you are a builder building a large structure it means that water mitigation and air normal air quality is not your only problem. Especially if the EPA finds it way into the various building codes. Dr. Cohen’s research is more than just interesting. If any of you are interested I can post my links and findings regarding radon and EPA.

[aznh]

Best wishes in your research. I can't see how we actually increase our tidal volume except of course that during apnea episodes no air volume is going in. My dad died of brain cancer at 54. He had very sever (never diagnosed) sleep apnea. All of us can remembers his loud snoring and then long periods of not breathing. I often wonder what part this apnea had in his cancer diagnosis. We raised our own food (meat and vegetables) and he didn't smoke or drink. (Oh and as far as radon -he slept every night with the window open, it really bothered him that he couldn't open the window at the hospital.

[sleepyandtired]

As your learning, the LNT model is known to be wrong. Are you studying in a health physics, nuclear engineering or...? Its been a while but I did my undergrad in Nuclear Engineering if you'd like to discuss in more depth.

[Pesser]

It would certainly be interesting to look at abstracts if you have them. I just recently read where radon has been found to be much more prevalent in some areas where it wasn't expected and maybe more so in general, though I suppose that doesn't directly address what you're studying. Why do you conclude that our airways are 'exhausted' - has it been proven, or it is a theory?

Sorry I meant that any excess air is exhausted through the mask and in exhaling.

[Pesser]

If we are breathing additional air pressure your sinuses would pop. That’s what happens when we go scuba diving. I am interested in knowing what air volume we are breathing when on CPAP because increasing volume increases the gases we inhale. It seems that we maintain a constant air volume in the lungs, while on CPAP, otherwise the increase air pressure inside of us would be felt, and it isn’t.

[chunkyfrog]

In most cases, anxiety itself is the greater danger.
The commercial exploitation of radon has reached such proportions
that many find it difficult to take any of it seriously.

[Pesser]

As your learning, the LNT model is known to be wrong. Are you studying in a health physics, nuclear engineering or...? Its been a while but I did my undergrad in Nuclear Engineering if you'd like to discuss in more depth.

I am approaching the radon issue from nuclear engineering. I am reading: http://www.amazon.ca/Underexposed-What- ... d+Hiserodt

It is loaded with references; most of which are no longer available. However Ytube has a lot of material available from Cohen and his colleagues. It is certainly disconcerting to see the EPA do this. I had not realized the extent of prejudice against the nuclear industry. There is really no reason for this. I would appreciate your permission to PM you when I have studied more and gathered more material.

[Goofproof]

In most cases, anxiety itself is the greater danger.
The commercial exploitation of radon has reached such proportions
that many find it difficult to take any of it seriously.

That and the fact that Radon is a gass that seeps from the earth, and is heavier than air, (meaning it pools at floor level in crawlways, and basements). If you have a concrete floor, only cracks and unsealed areas where pipes come in allow free flow into the home, that's a minor fix, for the paranoid homeowner. I'd worry more about spider bites. Jim

[chunkyfrog]

Paranoia is a gift that flows from a bottomless well.
Remember, you are not paranoid if "they" really are out to get you.

[Goofproof]

Paranoia is a gift that flows from a bottomless well.
Remember, you are not paranoid if "they" really are out to get you.

As far as Paranoia goes add Lead Paint, and Asbestos to the list.

Eating lead paint isn't tasty, it doesn't taste anything like chicken and if I had chewed on anything that's was painted, I had parents that would have beat the lead right out of me.

Asbestos only poses a problem if made airborn and dry. Many so called environmental problems are just a way to milk the public out of their hard earned money, by fear and regulation. Jim

[ems]

I worked for a home developer in 1985. I remember that was the first time I heard about Radon. We had to disclose the possibility of Radon and the purchaser had to sign saying it was disclosed. No one really understood what it was... only that it was a poisonous substance that could seep into the walls. We were also instructed to down play it as much as possible.

[archangle]

CPAP pressure is usually less than 20 cmH2O. Normal air pressure is around 1000 cmH2O. CPAP is only about 2% of atmospheric pressure. The number of micrograms of radon per cubic meter of air would only increase about 2%. You only do CPAP around 1/3 of the time, so it would be around 0.6% average increase averaged over the long term.

The LNT model is designed to set an upper limit on radiation risk. You use LNT to evaluate the risk of small doses of radiation and you have a very large confidence that the actual risk is not greater than your estimate. Erring on the side of caution is a good idea as long as you know you're doing it.

Those who criticize the LNT are arguing that it's a case where we're going overboard on safety, not that it's being used to hide the real risk.

I'm not sure that the idea that higher atmospheric pressure, including the same percent of radon, is the right way to model this risk. Even if it IS correct, the change in air pressure is equivalent to moving to an elevation of about 600 feet. 200 feet if you consider the daily average pressure. You often get a 2x or higher change in radon concentration by moving from one county to an adjacent county. Or even from one neighborhood to another. A change of around 1% is not that big a deal.

You should also realize that radon is only a miniscule part of your total cancer risk. CPAP "radon concentration" is only a small fraction of that already small risk.

[Pesser]

CPAP pressure is usually less than 20 cmH2O. Normal air pressure is around 1000 cmH2O. CPAP is only about 2% of atmospheric pressure. The number of micrograms of radon per cubic meter of air would only increase about 2%. You only do CPAP around 1/3 of the time, so it would be around 0.6% average increase averaged over the long term.

The LNT model is designed to set an upper limit on radiation risk. You use LNT to evaluate the risk of small doses of radiation and you have a very large confidence that the actual risk is not greater than your estimate. Erring on the side of caution is a good idea as long as you know you're doing it.

Those who criticize the LNT are arguing that it's a case where we're going overboard on safety, not that it's being used to hide the real risk.

I'm not sure that the idea that higher atmospheric pressure, including the same percent of radon, is the right way to model this risk. Even if it IS correct, the change in air pressure is equivalent to moving to an elevation of about 600 feet. 200 feet if you consider the daily average pressure. You often get a 2x or higher change in radon concentration by moving from one county to an adjacent county. Or even from one neighborhood to another. A change of around 1% is not that big a deal.

You should also realize that radon is only a miniscule part of your total cancer risk. CPAP "radon concentration" is only a small fraction of that already small risk.

The problem with LNT is that it a mathematical extraction and contrary to observed phenomena. It was extracted from miners’ studies wherein their exposure was long term and elevated. They were also old and retired (at least the one study I am reading and they had already surpassed their life span by at least 10 years). In large studies it is found that exposure to residential levels of radon reduce the risk of cancer. Everything I am reading is referring to 4 pci/l. my levels are sometimes closer to 20 pci/l (700 bq/m3). At higher levels I still do not find that observed phenomena has any cancer or other effect. A good short explanation for the EPA standard is given here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZHH3UQ ... gWdDHOoQnQ
A more extensive presentation is given here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxcyUle ... gWdDHOoQnQ
I have a digital monitor and I tried it in a small garage built on a slab, detached from any other building. It was giving 80 bq/m3. The back ground radiation is 74 bg/m3 (world average). There is no chance that any building tested over a long period of time can meet any standard.

Thanks for responding, you have given me an idea of how much additional volume of air the CPAP is delivering.

[Pesser]

The anxiety this is creating in me is beyond what I can endure.

The EPA is stupid enough to believe it is not creating damage. Removing radon (mitigating) is often very expensive. I’m thinking of large buildings that have apartments. When these landlords go to sell, the cost of mitigating is very high indeed. My house is built on a cement slab. It is built in a hill and very energy efficient. I have an air exchanger (HRV). I have radon, but mitigating could be worse than leaving things as they are!

[Guest]

CPAP pressure is usually less than 20 cmH2O. Normal air pressure is around 1000 cmH2O.

AFAIK - atmospheric pressure (at sea level) in cmH2o is 0 (zero).

If it were 1000 cmH2O there would be flow "into" the cpap machines instead of "out", no?