Empty water chamber daily??

[Denial Dave]

when you have the higher bi-pap pressures that I have, the air probably flows so quickly that it never has a chance to form into droplets in the hose.

LOL

FWIW --I do a refill each day and clean out my tank once a month.

[Wulfman...]

Another thought.......
How many have seen "germs" or other things floating on the TOP of the water in a HH tank?
Anything I've ever seen in mine has been far below the surface. Which adds to my past descriptions that the HH tank is like a "water bath" filtration system. If anything manages to get past the filters and makes it into the water, it stays there.

And, I'm SURE that the air you breathe throughout the other 16 or so hours of the day is just absolutely "STERILE". Right?


Den

.

[MaxDarkside]

My Resmed S9 humidifier tank has 3 marks; Full, 1/2 full, 1 night to go, so when I get down low, I dump, rinse, maybe disinfect, refill.

Rinsing 'er out every three days seems to work pretty gud, ya.

[Wulfman...]

Only one of many links I have saved regarding Legionnaires' Disease.

http://www.cdc.gov/legionella/about/cau ... ssion.html


Den

.

[fdw]

I suspect this is a guideline to accommodate a worst case scenario.
Some "distilled water" sold in stores is NOT sterile, and within a few days, a "science project" happens.
I get more clean tank time with home distilled, but I check the water every day-
to determine when it is time for a purge and serious wash.

No distilled water is sterile 10 seconds after your start the CPAP machine. There are germs in the air.

Distilled water helps prevent germ growth because there's very little food in the water for the germs to grow on.

I think you need to dump the water every morning if you're not using distilled water. It helps to dump the water every day, even with distilled water, but it's not not as necessary. With distilled water, you may get away with dumping it less often. I dump mine at least weekly, or if it starts to smell. Some distilled water users go a lot longer without dumping it.

Distilled water is water from which impurities, as dissolved salts and colloidal particles, have been removed by one or more processes of distillation; chemically pure water.

Distilled water does NOT help prevent germ growth, actually tap water would be safer to drink than distilled water because of the National (EPA regulation) requirement for a chlorine residual minimum in tap water, and if there is a chlorine residual minimum of 0.20 mg/l you can be pretty sure (99.98%) that there are no GERMS. Distilled water does not offer this protection. However you don't want to breath chemically treated water over long periods of time if at all, and you also don't want to breath water that has high levels of minerals either.

Technically can make your own distilled water by boiling tap water (water that has been chemically treated) and capturing the vapor Amazon sell a cheap model http://www.amazon.com/Water-Distiller-C ... B00026F9F8

[archangle]

You cannot "connect the dots" between Legionnaires disease in those other settings and in the CPAP humidifier tanks!

But, like I said, everybody has to make up their own mind as to what their threshold is to their periodic routines with this therapy.


Den

.

No, but it shows dirty water can spread germs if the water becomes aerosolized. Overfill an S9 humidifier, take off the hose, put your hand it the airflow, and feel the water droplets.

And, WHY would anybody want to do that? And, most users use at least a 6' hose. Are you asking me to believe that water "droplets" introduced into a hose at the humidifier connector are still going to be "droplets" six feet later with air blowing them up that hose?

"Germs" can't be carried in water vapor molecules!

But, you're making an excellent argument as to why a user should want to turn down or turn off their heated humidifier settings. Warm water VAPOR leaving the HH tank will travel up the hose and cool......condensing and turning them into water DROPLETS ("rainout") which can collect in low spots in the hose or in the mask and disrupt the users' sleep. (Removes tongue from cheek)


Den

.

If water becomes "aerosolized" into small droplets, it can carry germs with it. If the droplets are small enough, they will travel a long way. Take your favorite aerosol or pump spray cleanser and spray a fine mist into the air between you and a sunny window some time. Notice how far and how long the particles drift around in the air currents. Or take a spray paint can and spray a puff into the air outside and see how far it can drift.

If there are germs growing in your humidifier water, in theory, they can't get out and flow down the hose because there's only water vapor coming out of the water. That's true if the water evaporates "smoothly," but not true if water droplets are formed. This is referred to as aerosolization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerosolization

If a droplet of contaminated water is blown into the air, any germs in the water will be carried along. Even if the water quickly evaporates, the germ is now airborne, and will float around as a dust particle, which can easily make its way through the hose and into your lungs.

Aerosolized germs are one way some germs spread. The 1976 Legionnaire's disease outbreak is the most famous case, but flu spreads through aerosolized germs when you sneeze, and there are other diseases that spread through aerosols.

Presumably, the manufacturers take care to reduce aerosolization of the water in the humidifier to prevent the spread of germs. However, if you look at the water flowing in my humidifiers, the airflow is sufficiently turbulent that the surface of the water does ripple quite a bit. It wouldn't be too surprising if some droplets are formed.

What's the point? While they try to make it difficult for germs to get aerosolized and get out of the water tank into the air stream, it's not a foregone conclusion. I think all the manufacturers still recommend cleaning or at least dumping the water tank every day.

I'm not terribly concerned about it, but I hate to hear people implying that you don't need to be concerned at all with germs in the water tank. There are reasons to keep your tank clean.

I'll admit I top up my tank and only dump and clean once a week or so. I do dump and clean earlier than that if I notice it's got yucky.

[archangle]

Distilled water is water from which impurities, as dissolved salts and colloidal particles, have been removed by one or more processes of distillation; chemically pure water.

Distilled water does NOT help prevent germ growth.

Let's discuss "pure" water for the moment. "Pure" as in 100% H2O.

If you drop a germ into pure water, it can continue to live for a long time. i.e. Pure water dosn't kill germs. However, if there's nothing but pure water germs can't reproduce because there is no "food" to build new germs.

In order to reproduce, germs need a source of energy. This can be from organic matter or other chemicals in the water. Pure water doesn't have this. Algae can get their energy from light, but most germs can't do that.

Once the germ has energy, in order to reproduce, it needs the raw materials germs are made of, or it can't make the stuff germs are made of. One important example is protein, which all living things (not including some viruses) are made of.

In order to make protein, a germ needs a source of available nitrogen. I say "available" because most germs can't "fix" nitrogen from the air, it has to be in some organic or certain chemical forms. There are some types of "nitrogen fixing" bacteria, but only a few types of bacteria do this, and I don't think any germ organisms can do this. Even algae can't grow in pure water because there is no source of nitrogen that it can use.

There are other chemicals that germs need to grow, but nitrogen is a good example of why germ growth is difficult in 100% pure water.

Pure water is not a good medium for germs to grow (multiply) in because it's very difficult for them to get the chemicals and energy sources they can use to make new germs.

You can still get some growth of germs in the distilled water in your humidifier tank because the distilled water isn't 100% pure. The distilled water isn't 100% pure to begin with. Then the air coming in contains dust and some gaseous chemicals that can dissolve in the water. You get various things on the tank when handling and cleaning it. Still, the purer the water, the slower germ growth will be.

[Wulfman...]

If water becomes "aerosolized" into small droplets, it can carry germs with it. If the droplets are small enough, they will travel a long way. Take your favorite aerosol or pump spray cleanser and spray a fine mist into the air between you and a sunny window some time. Notice how far and how long the particles drift around in the air currents. Or take a spray paint can and spray a puff into the air outside and see how far it can drift.

If there are germs growing in your humidifier water, in theory, they can't get out and flow down the hose because there's only water vapor coming out of the water. That's true if the water evaporates "smoothly," but not true if water droplets are formed. This is referred to as aerosolization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerosolization

If a droplet of contaminated water is blown into the air, any germs in the water will be carried along. Even if the water quickly evaporates, the germ is now airborne, and will float around as a dust particle, which can easily make its way through the hose and into your lungs.

Aerosolized germs are one way some germs spread. The 1976 Legionnaire's disease outbreak is the most famous case, but flu spreads through aerosolized germs when you sneeze, and there are other diseases that spread through aerosols.

Presumably, the manufacturers take care to reduce aerosolization of the water in the humidifier to prevent the spread of germs. However, if you look at the water flowing in my humidifiers, the airflow is sufficiently turbulent that the surface of the water does ripple quite a bit. It wouldn't be too surprising if some droplets are formed.

What's the point? While they try to make it difficult for germs to get aerosolized and get out of the water tank into the air stream, it's not a foregone conclusion. I think all the manufacturers still recommend cleaning or at least dumping the water tank every day.

I'm not terribly concerned about it, but I hate to hear people implying that you don't need to be concerned at all with germs in the water tank. There are reasons to keep your tank clean.

I'll admit I top up my tank and only dump and clean once a week or so. I do dump and clean earlier than that if I notice it's got yucky.

If, if, if, if, if, if........ More "Chicken Little" crap.
Where do the "germs" come from? They're in our environment and our own bodies. But, they don't get blasted out of our XPAP machines into us.

I'm more worried about catching "something" from someone in a local store. Doorknobs or handles (especially in restrooms) that have been infected by someone's hands who have something contagious they can spread to me. I'm not a germophobe, but I've been infected with the flu and other contagions by others over the years, so I try to limit those possibilities.

IF something gets into my HH tank, it came from the air within my dwelling that I'm breathing when I'm NOT attached to my machine and breathing filtered air. If it's from MY own germs, I can't infect myself with something I'm immune to or to which I have built up a resistance.

As is in my "profile", I use "passover" (cool) humidification and dump and rinse my HH chamber when I start a new gallon of distilled water......about every 2 1/2 - 3 months. If I happen to see anything in my tank before that, I'll dump/rinse and refill, too. It's only happened a couple of times in 9+ years.


Den

.

[Sir NoddinOff]

I used to empty my water chamber daily and scrub it once a month because I would often get a bit of bio-film buildup in the tank corners. Finally about six months ago somebody told me to just pop the lid and bottom into the top rack of my dishwasher once in awhile. It works like a charm. CAUTION: Make sure your tank is dishwasher proof before you try this. Call the CPAP.com chat line and they will give you the info on what tanks are dishwasher safe.

[torontoCPAPguy]

I have a friend who used to work for one of the largest pharmaceutical companies. His largest customer was the folks that put out soft drinks. They put antibiotics in the water... no better forum for bacteria to grow than sugar water.

I'm not quite that fussy myself despite being anal about cleanliness and germs/bacteria on my breathing apparatus. I run until I'm pretty sure that the humidifier won't make it through the night for me. Then I empty it, rinse it out with Control III germicide and a WEE BIT of odorless soap and rinse well (no need to dry) and refill with pharmaceutical grade distilled water available at most pharmacies or health supply stores. It is cheap and much nicer than spending three weeks on total life support.

[palerider]

I have a friend who used to work for one of the largest pharmaceutical companies. His largest customer was the folks that put out soft drinks. They put antibiotics in the water...

and you FELL for that? *snork*

[archangle]

If, if, if, if, if, if........ More "Chicken Little" crap.
Where do the "germs" come from? They're in our environment and our own bodies. But, they don't get blasted out of our XPAP machines into us.

I'm more worried about catching "something" from someone in a local store. Doorknobs or handles (especially in restrooms) that have been infected by someone's hands who have something contagious they can spread to me. I'm not a germophobe, but I've been infected with the flu and other contagions by others over the years, so I try to limit those possibilities.

IF something gets into my HH tank, it came from the air within my dwelling that I'm breathing when I'm NOT attached to my machine and breathing filtered air. If it's from MY own germs, I can't infect myself with something I'm immune to or to which I have built up a resistance.

As is in my "profile", I use "passover" (cool) humidification and dump and rinse my HH chamber when I start a new gallon of distilled water......about every 2 1/2 - 3 months. If I happen to see anything in my tank before that, I'll dump/rinse and refill, too. It's only happened a couple of times in 9+ years.


Den

.

Learn to read, buddy.

Personally, I'm not that worried about it. I dump my distilled water once a week or so.

However, for those who claim germs can't get out of the tank, it's not true that it's impossible for germs to get out of the tank into your lungs. I believe it's difficult, but it's by no means impossible.

[fdw]

FYI,
Legionnaires' disease is transmitted by inhalation of aerosolized water and/or soil contaminated with the bacteria. It is not airborne and it is not transmitted from person-to-person. Sources where temperatures allow the bacteria to thrive include hot-water tanks, cooling towers and evaporative condensers of large air-conditioning systems, such as those commonly found in hotels and large office buildings. Though the first known outbreak was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, cases of legionellosis have occurred throughout the world.

[palerider]

FYI,
Legionnaires' disease is transmitted by inhalation of aerosolized water and/or soil contaminated with the bacteria. It is not airborne and it is not transmitted from person-to-person.

so, what you're saying is that archangel's 'thought experiment' of getting legionnaires from a non sanitized cpap tank is, like most of his opinions presented as fact, dubious?

[ems]

FYI,
Legionnaires' disease is transmitted by inhalation of aerosolized water and/or soil contaminated with the bacteria. It is not airborne and it is not transmitted from person-to-person.

so, what you're saying is that archangel's 'thought experiment' of getting legionnaires from a non sanitized cpap tank is, like most of his opinions presented as fact, dubious?

There you go again Palerider... you almost made it 24 hours before you said something in a way that was totally unnecessary and bound to cause a nasty come back.

I don't always agree with Archangel... but at least he doesn't put someone down in every other sentence.