Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

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Kiralynx
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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by Kiralynx » Thu May 21, 2009 9:25 pm

-SWS wrote:Heading up to the Windy City just in time for kite flying season... Smart! If you like Chicago-style pan pizza, there are always Gino's East, Uno's, or even Lou Malnati's pizzerias to choose from. Glad you had a good b'day!
Oh, I love Chicago-style pizza. Last time I had it was in 2000 when I was there for the World Science Fiction Convention. Can't have it now -- can't have any grain, and most commercial sauce has added sugar, while the sausage and pepperoni fer shure does. Of course, I could get busy and make some safe sausage and pepperoni, and make myself a personal pizza with almond-parmesan crust, but I kinda think a pizza place would be upset with me if I walked in and ate what I'd brought, even if everyone else was ordering. <sigh>

So I'll go with the steaks. Upton Sinclair was awhile ago. I presume you've read Fast Food Nation?

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by -SWS » Thu May 21, 2009 10:42 pm

Kiralynx wrote:Upton Sinclair was awhile ago. I presume you've read Fast Food Nation?
My nephew tried real hard to put Fast Food Nation on my reading list a couple years ago. But I didn't want my fast-food bubble burst.

I can remember temporarily working in England, way out in the middle of nowhere, back in the eighties. The small-town steak-and-kidney pies at the pub and even the mom-and-pop fish and chips were good, but got old. To this day I can remember driving the two hours to London---both rental car and steering wheel placed on the wrong side---where I could get a good old McDonald's shake, burger, and fries.

Guilty! But at least now it's almost always a McDonald's salad and iced tea. Haven't had a steak-and-kidney pie since.

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by SaltLakeJan » Fri May 22, 2009 3:13 am

SWS
oweeeeeeeeee, Last time I had a steak & Kidney pie was about 3 years ago in a Soho Pub. It might have been saved since the previous time I was there - - 'bout 1998.

I asked my DH's cardiologist if I needed a Halter Monitor after my last treadmill stress test.(I think it was in late fall 2008) He told me I "passed" & didn't need a Halter at this time. When DH took his stress test in about March of this year, I showed him the heart figures from the PSG 12-2008. His comment was something like "I assure you those figures are incorrect. They just grabbed them out of the air." In 2004 he told me I had some heart enlargement, by early 2005, he said "much improved."

Then I noticed the similaries of the heart rate figures on 4-2000. After I have the pending sleep test 6-9-2009. I will ask my internist.

I have had a Holter Monitor several times, but haven't had one in last five (or so) years. No Dr. ever took any action after one, nor was a medication prescribed. I had a follow up finger Oximiter (from my 12-2008 sleep study) test a couple of months ago - It was for my previous sleep doctor. His nurse said they would call if oxygen was low - never heard from her. I'll call her tomorrow to ask for data. Jan

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Muffy
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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by Muffy » Fri May 22, 2009 4:15 am

-SWS wrote:
12/2008 PSG summary wrote:HEART RATE SUMMARY
Average Heart Rate--------52
Low Heart Rate-------------16
High Heart Rate------------150
no Bradycardic periods
no Tachycardic periods

** Sinus arrhythmia was seen throughout the night (see print out) and there were no PV'C's. *The ECG lead had a poor connection so it was difficult to access the HR.

**Conclusion #6. Single lead EKG revealed normal sinus rhythm with no significant arrhythmias.
* Sleep Dr. 12-2008 cover letter somewhere. Tech noted lead "off" or "poor connection, can't remember which. Jan
Muffy, how would you proceed if those were your own HR summaries?
Well, you can't simultaneously have "no Bradycardic periods", "no Tachycardic periods", "no PV'C's" and "no significant arrhythmias", and then post up a Low Heart Rate of 16 and a High Heart Rate of 150. You would at least need a couple of "missed beats" to generate the HR 16, and at least one premature beat of some sort to generate the HR 150 (a PVC would be the most likely culprit, but as noted, there ain't any).

One should not submit those numbers without explanation. They are not "pulled out of the air" per se, but computer-generated, with the most likely explanation being artifact (the "poor connection" thing, motion, etc.). Regardless, software packages have a means to remove bad data, either automatically and/or manually.

So in answer to your question, -SWS, Muffy would say:

"Wow, that's something."

"Print 'em up and show me them events."

Course, she can come up with some uncomfortable questions sometimes.

LIke:

"Why, in a test conducted in 12/2008, are they not using the new criteria that accredited laboratories needed to adopt by July 2008?"

Muffy

PS - Jan, why are you up in the middle of the night?
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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by -SWS » Fri May 22, 2009 9:56 am

SaltLakeJan wrote: I asked my DH's cardiologist if I needed a Halter Monitor after my last treadmill stress test.(I think it was in late fall 2008) He told me I "passed" & didn't need a Halter at this time. When DH took his stress test in about March of this year, I showed him the heart figures from the PSG 12-2008. His comment was something like "I assure you those figures are incorrect. They just grabbed them out of the air." In 2004 he told me I had some heart enlargement, by early 2005, he said "much improved."

Then I noticed the similaries of the heart rate figures on 4-2000. After I have the pending sleep test 6-9-2009. I will ask my internist.
Well the 2000 and 2008 HR similarities struck me as well. I also question the validity of the 2008 study. More importantly Muffy, who professionally recognizes good NPSG methodology from questionable, doesn't like some of what she sees.

That alone would make me want to schedule the next sleep study sooner rather than later.

SaltLakeJan wrote: took Heart Rate Summary to Cardiologist (I see him for yearly stress test) He sd heart rates on 12-2008 sleep tests not accurate based on his stress test figures for about 5 years.)
The 2008 data may very well have been inaccurate, because of that missing lead. That missing lead may have contributed to artifacts; and/or it may have contributed to the clinician(s) pulling corrupted HR samples for the summary as your cardiologist suggests.

But then again, in light of the 2000 HR summary, that 2008 HR data may not have been that far off base.

And that gets me to wondering if your cardiologist unrealistically expects sleep-study EKG traces, that can be nocturnally pathological, necessarily imply "bad data collection" when they happen to deviate from normalized EKG traces by day. I hope he understands that for certain SDB patients, those two sets of EKG traces can legitimately be as radically different as day and night---with significant HR and HRV pathology sometimes being reflected only in the nocturnal EKG traces.

And I also think it's worth noting that both hypercapnic and hypocapnic varieties of Complex Sleep Disordered Breathing do not always manifest uniformly from night to night. Rather, the severity of those symptomatic expressions can be inherently episodic in some cases---manifesting in "fits and spurts" so to speak.
PSG titration study wrote:The most striking finding is the difference in natures of apneas. In Previous study, she had predominance of obstructive apnea. In this study, she had central apneas or hpopneas up to 84 events per hr. With Occasional Obstructive apneas up to 16 per hr. Respiratory distress 81 events per hr.
That strongly suggests a Complex Sleep Disordered Breathing (CSDB/CompSAS) issue as Muffy pointed out earlier. If so, a question remains regarding just how episodic or consistent that central dysregulation happens to be, from one night or month to the next. And, of course, biological adaptation or long-term homeostasis may have gradually lessened your initial adverse reaction to CPAP pressure as well.

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by SaltLakeJan » Fri May 22, 2009 11:10 am

Mornin' Muffy & SWS
-SWS wrote: {quote Jan]Then I noticed the similaries of the heart rate figures on 4-2000. After I have the pending sleep test 6-9-2009. I will ask my internist.
-SWS wrote:Well the 2000 and 2008 similarities struck me as well. I also question the validity of the 2008 study. More importantly Muffy, who recognizes good NPSG methodology from bad, doesn't really like some of what he sees. That alone would make me want the next sleep study sooner rather than later.
Well, according to yesterday's phone call from Dr's office, we will see the results from the June 9th study, on July 9th.
I am supposed to take F&P machine, mask & hose. A technician will go over all aspects of sleep study results. Followed by meeting with Sleep Dr.

I just called the internist's office, he doesn't do Holter Monitor. I made appointment anyway.

Muffy asked:
"
Muffy wrote:"Why, in a test conducted in 12/2008, are they not using the new criteria that accredited laboratories needed to adopt by July 2008?"
That's either an intrestesting question, or a scary one. Maybe we shouldn't inform my ins. co. When I called them in Dec 2008 to verify they wd pay 80% of sleep study. Wd only pay if was up-to-date-accredited sleep lab. Dr also assured me, was fully accredited. Had one Technician & 1 assistant, both had day jobs,
-SWS wrote:Muffy

PS - Jan, why are you up in the middle of the night?
This Jan we are talking 'bout is having difficulty transiting from "Night Owl" to "Lark". She has been adjusting her bed time earlier & earlier, wanting to avoid delayed sleep onset. Last night she was in bed & asleep by 10:30. Awakened around 1 a.m.. Stuff sewed in back of T-Shirt to prevent supine sleep, awakened me. tried to go back to sleep. Got up 'bout 45 min. later. Watch ooooold, boring movie, later bring up Cpaptalk.com, always something interesting here.

Remembering noisy 9-2001 sleep study, called Sleep Center, ask for quietest room in this place, it is reserved. JAN

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by -SWS » Fri May 22, 2009 1:12 pm

SaltLakeJan wrote:
Muffy wrote:"Why, in a test conducted in 12/2008, are they not using the new criteria that accredited laboratories needed to adopt by July 2008?"
That's either an intrestesting question, or a scary one. Maybe we shouldn't inform my ins. co. When I called them in Dec 2008 to verify they wd pay 80% of sleep study. Wd only pay if was up-to-date-accredited sleep lab. Dr also assured me, was fully accredited.
Jan, these are the AASM accredited sleep centers in your state:
http://www.sleepcenters.org/Centers.aspx?state=UT

If your sleep center isn't on that AASM list, then I'd ask the lab and the insurance company exactly which accreditation program(s) they are referring to.
sleepcenters.org wrote:Sleepcenters.org is compiled and published by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine (AASM) as a reference source of professional information on AASM accredited center and laboratory members. Nonmember accredited center/laboratory information is not available through this site. Verification of accredited status should be obtained by contacting the AASM National Office at 708-492-0930 or accreditation@aasmnet.org.

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by SaltLakeJan » Fri May 22, 2009 2:35 pm

Hello SWS & Muffy

I'm relieved I don't have to begin this post with HE*# no, my sleep center isn't on the accredition list. My Sleep Doctor is Medical Director of an AASM accredited Sleep Lab

I called the Medical Center where my 2000 sleep tests were done - they still do sleep studies. Remembering the sleep deprived student who was Tech on both March 2000, & April 2000. I'd make a guess they were not. They are located in a National Health Center, have seen their name, more than once, on a Federal Lawsuit.

I called the office for the Center where I had 12-2008 sleep study, they not only do studies, they have opened their third location in the Salt Lake Valley. The room I was in was dark and quiet, but far from freshly cleaned. I called the AASM to discover if a non-member accredited center. LMTC

I believe it is prudent not to list names of facilities, doctors or specific cities on an internet site.Bleeping Beauty had an interesting thread
SWS wrote:And that gets me to wondering if your cardiologist unrealistically expects sleep-study EKG traces, that can be nocturnally pathological, necessarily imply "bad data collection" when they happen to deviate from normalized EKG traces by day. I hope he understands that for certain SDB patients, those two sets of EKG traces can legitimately be as radically different as day and night---with significant HR and HRV pathology sometimes being reflected only in the nocturnal EKG traces.

And I also think it's worth noting that both hypercapnic and hypocapnic varieties of Complex Sleep Disordered Breathing do not always manifest uniformly from night to night. Rather, the severity of those symptomatic expressions can be inherently episodic in some cases---manifesting in "fits and spurts" so to speak.


SWS, I don't plan to ignore the two paragraphs. Some of the symptoms I presented to Diabetes Dr, about 18 mo ago, caused him to send me to Cardiologist's Office,where he did EKG, sd there was no problem. He is a bit touchy about other doctors telling him what to do. I don't suppose he would let me have a copy of that - He sees me as a favor to my DH following his Open Heart surgery.

This Jan, is a relieved Jan ( re: accredition)

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by -SWS » Fri May 22, 2009 9:17 pm

Jan, here's the Resperate "guided breathing" biofeedback device that has been only briefly discussed on this message board for several years now:
Image
InterCure has an exciting product pipeline based on its broadly-patented “Device-Guided Breathing” technology platform. This technology enables a systematic reduction in sympathetic outflow of the autonomic nervous system, one of the key underlying causes of cardiovascular disease, insomnia and several other medical conditions.
Truth is I'd probably consider trying it for the insomnia if nothing else. Aside from the before-sleep relaxation benefits, there's always the chance cardiovascular function and even central breathing may improve as well. It really does seem to help certain people, and you would seem to be a candidate.

http://www.resperate.com/us/discover/wh ... erate.aspx
http://www.resperate.com/us/discover/clinicalproof.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?ur ... te&x=0&y=0
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dl ... category0=
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=res ... =en&tab=ws

I'm thinking of getting one myself...


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Addendum: I ordered one of their Duo models that can track statistics for one or two people. My wife wants to try it as well.

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by SaltLakeJan » Sat May 23, 2009 10:23 am

Hi SWS

Thanks for the information on the Resperator. Several years ago the cardiologist suggested it might be something for me to consider I read the information online & decided the prime function was synchronizing your breathing to a musical tone. Another significant part was giving a longer emphasis on the exhaling, rather than the inhale.

As an experiment I went online, considered the merits of the many free metronomes. Decided All-Guitar-Chords.com/metronome would work best for me. I choose two instruments, then set 51 as the synchronization beat. After trying various breathing patterns, I found inhaling to a count of 4 (using the beat) pausing for one beat. I exhaled to a count of 7, paused again for one beat. I continue the breathing pattern for about 15 minutes. For me, the procedure worked best in a darkened room.
'
This technique lowered my blood pressure immediately. . It has the same downside as a piece of exercise equipment or the resperate - you have to use it on a regular basis.

I have demonstrated the technique to the cardiologist and my internist. I did not use the breathing pattern the morning of an exam. At the dr's office, the nurse took my blood pressure, then I sat quietly visualizing the metronome beat for about 10 minutes. The nurse again took my blood pressure, it was lower by 20 points.

When I use this on a regular basis my blood pressure stays around 120 to 135. When I began CPAP, I allowed myself to be so envolved, I forgot about it. I will try it tonight, pre-bed time.

I can see the resperator might work better than my plan because you could use it lying in bed. I could do the visualization of the 4/7 beat pattern, but the physical presence of the belt, might psychologically be a more powerful influence on my mind.

Appreciate your feedback on this. As always, you can see aspects I didn't realize were there. I have no problem ordering the Resperator. Jan

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Last edited by SaltLakeJan on Sat May 23, 2009 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by -SWS » Sat May 23, 2009 10:34 am

Most clever, Jan!

If you don't mind, I'll quote your ingenious approach in the currently active RESPeRATE thread.

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by SaltLakeJan » Sun May 24, 2009 5:38 pm

Image

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by SaltLakeJan » Sun May 24, 2009 5:41 pm

Image

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by SaltLakeJan » Sun May 24, 2009 5:49 pm

Image

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Re: Had UPPP, Do I Have To Get A New Doc, To Get Help With This?

Post by robertmarilyn » Sun May 24, 2009 6:20 pm

SaltLakeJan wrote:Image
Are you testing us to see if we are paying attention!?!?!?!!

Is that you Jan? I never figured you for a witch! But you are a nice looking witch if you are a witch
mar