Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

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jnk
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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by jnk » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:53 pm

padster wrote: . . . it's exactly what i've been doing ie. "lowering pressure to get rid of few centrals". It's lowered my AHI and i think i feel better compared to when the pressure was at 7-9cm, but i hope it hasn't caused any undetected OSAs. Do you know what's the best way to figure out if a particular case is one where it's counterproductive to lower the pressure?
If your AHI is lower AND you are feeling better with the pressure change, that generally means you are on the right track, as long as your doc(s) are on board with that, if all you are doing is treating sleep by preventing airway instability. My only concerns are (1) sometimes, in my opinion, too much credit is given to the home-machine numbers as far as differentiating centrals from obstructives, (2) attempting to assess successful sleep treatment from mere breathing statistics is a difficult thing to do, and (3) if a constant higher pressure is needed to stabilize the airway, sometimes it is worth it to give the body time to get used to that in a way that any centrals that occur get a chance to eventually dissipate on their own. But that is nothing more than my understanding based on what I've read as a patient. There are pros on this board who know much better than I do about such things.

As for home sleep tests, to me the only especially good use for them is to verify cheaply that a person needs PAP. A home test can't rule out OSA, only rule it in. And when it comes to diagnosing a complicated sleep problem, nothing beats a lab/center PSG. A lab titration allows a human to see your reaction to pressures tried, for example. I understand that not everyone is in a position to get a lab titration for one reason or another--especially in certain countries. BUT, if you have documented the elusiveness of your being able to find the right pressure for you, that may make a powerful argument for being an exception to the rule and getting a lab PSG.

Please don't allow my words to get in the way of the very good help you are getting here from some very knowledgeable people, though. I throw in a few things here and there in an attempt to balance, but I have yet to see Pugsy, for example, steer anyone down any dangerous road. She does amazing work here, in my opinion.

I very much admire your approach and am sure you are going to get to the bottom of your sleep difficulties and are going to be able to get the best sleep possible.

My take in summary is that an open-airway apnea, as marked by a home machine, may, or may not, truly be a central. (Only a lab PSG can definitively call an event a central event.) And some find they feel better with a pressure slightly higher than what is needed to get rid of apneas and hypopneas. However, if you are feeling better with less pressure and your AHI is lower, I cannot argue with success. Your road to better sleep seems to be smoothing out, in that sense.

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by kaiasgram » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:25 pm

Your machine doesn't record RERAs. You must have seen a screenshot from someone using a Respironics machine.

A sleep tech I've been in touch with says that some sleep labs don't titrate for RERAs, they stop titrating you once apneas and hypopneas are under control. I was advised to specifically ask at my next sleep study that they titrate for RERAs. So the lack of information about RERA's on your sleep report -- I wonder if it's because you weren't exhibiting RERAs during your test, or because your sleep lab doesn't take them into account. (I have a colleague who has demonstrated RERAs on her sleep study and profound fatigue -- in other words, she has a UARS diagnosis -- and her doctor is having to do battle with her insurance company to cover her cpap machine because she doesn't have full obstructive sleep apnea.)

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by padster » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:41 am

jnk wrote:My only concerns are (1) sometimes, in my opinion, too much credit is given to the home-machine numbers as far as differentiating centrals from obstructives
Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts. I do find your point to be interesting and unique as far as the potential inaccuracies of CPAP machines in distinguishing between CSAs and OSAs. I suppose OSAs are more common so most of the talk is about Obstructives, and when it comes to Clear Airways, they are normally associated with CSAs even though the Clear Airway events may be caused by other issues (including even OSAs if i understand what you're saying correctly).

When i saw that i have Clear Airway events, i instantly headed down the path of researching the chance/probability that mine may be caused by Centrals out of concern that there may be more serious health conditions (cardiac etc) that need to be looked into. With the CA events easing off gradually over time (fingers crossed!), i'm hoping that it may be something other than CSAs that's behind the Clear Airway events.
jnk wrote:As for home sleep tests, to me the only especially good use for them is to verify cheaply that a person needs PAP. A home test can't rule out OSA, only rule it in. And when it comes to diagnosing a complicated sleep problem, nothing beats a lab/center PSG.
I guess i'll go ahead and get another home test for the moment to see if it confirms and 'rules in' the OSA detected in my first test. At least that will confirm that i do have OSA and that the 4cm CPAP pressure is actually effective in treating it. I presume the home test will not be able to rule in or out whether i have Central Sleep Apnea, so nothing can be done about that. However, if this 2nd home study reveals that i do not have OSA, then it'll be a different story and i'll probably make the journey to get a PSG at a specialist clinic/lab. Hopefully that makes sense.
jnk wrote:However, if you are feeling better with less pressure and your AHI is lower, I cannot argue with success.
I think it's heading in the right direction but i'm not so sure about success yet as the data sometimes doesn't make sense. For instance, when i go to bed early and get a good 8-9 hours sleep, the AHI & number of events has been generally higher than when i stay up till 2-3am and only catch 5 to 6 hours sleep. Common sense would suggest that it'd be the other way round, so its all a bit baffling when analyzing the day to day data. But when observing weekly/monthly data, it seems to be trending in the right direction.

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by padster » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:50 am

kaiasgram wrote:Your machine doesn't record RERAs. You must have seen a screenshot from someone using a Respironics machine.
Ah, that explains it. Do you know why the S9 Autoset doesn't record RERAs? I thought its one of the most advanced and full featured machines on the market.
kaiasgram wrote:A sleep tech I've been in touch with says that some sleep labs don't titrate for RERAs, they stop titrating you once apneas and hypopneas are under control. I was advised to specifically ask at my next sleep study that they titrate for RERAs. So the lack of information about RERA's on your sleep report -- I wonder if it's because you weren't exhibiting RERAs during your test, or because your sleep lab doesn't take them into account.
I had a home sleep study which wasn't a full PSG from a sleep lab so i presume it didn't titrate for RERAs. Thanks for clarifying it, i'll know what to ask the next time i have a sleep study done.

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by Pugsy » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:57 am

padster wrote:the data sometimes doesn't make sense. For instance, when i go to bed early and get a good 8-9 hours sleep, the AHI & number of events has been generally higher than when i stay up till 2-3am and only catch 5 to 6 hours sleep. Common sense would suggest that it'd be the other way round,
I have seen this often. My AHI is always lower on shorter hours of sleep nights. In fact about the only time I have ever had a 0.0 AHI has been with limited hours of sleep (like 3 to 4). I think that as I sleep longer it just stands to reason that I will get more REM sleep and REM sleep is my main OSA culprit. The more REM I get the greater my chances of having a few events slip past the defenses.

I had another alien visit night before last. Give me a little while and I will update my alien thread and show you.
Truckload of centrals in one tight little group and this time I can't explain them away with being awake. I don't know if I was or not because I don't remember.

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by kaiasgram » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:01 pm

padster wrote: Do you know why the S9 Autoset doesn't record RERAs?
Not a clue ! I was still in shock and not yet cpap-literate when I bought my S9. If I had it do to over again I'd buy the Respironics, partly because it does flag RERAs (I still don't know if I have RERAs that could be contributing to my poor sleep), and partly because I had the opportunity to use a Respironics machine at the sleep lab last weekend and found it more compatible with my natural breathing -- even at the very low pressure of 4. And last but not least, it's a less expensive machine. Next time...

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by jnk » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:59 pm

Home machines do a pretty good job of scoring apneas, since any 10-second pause in breathing can be considered some kind of apnea. But home machines still score some pauses in breathing that would be ignored in a lab.

Home machines, don't do a very good job of scoring "hypopneas," though, since ALL the machines can see is the breathing, not the O2 saturation or the arousal. And even with the breathing, all the brands have very different proprietary definitions for how they attempt to score "hypopneas." That info is only useful for trending, not for knowing whether a hypopnea that would have been scored in a lab actually occurred. Thats why I try to put quote marks around "hypopnea" when it is a home-treatment-machine scored "hypopnea." Just my choice, to show it may, or may not, be a "real" hypopnea.

And NO home machine has any idea whether a RERA occurred. By definition, one would have to know whether or not there was an arousal (the "A" in "RERA"), and no home treatment machine can know that because no home machine measures sleep. Only a lab has any chance of scoring a RERA. Anything else is a wild guess.

My only complaint with S9 ResMed home-treatment-machine scoring is that they have apparently given up trying to score "hypopneas" at all. I don't think they've even released their proprietary definition of "hypopnea" in the S9. Is seems they got tired of being accused of "overscoring" hypopneas in the S8, and now they've thrown in the towel and refuse to pass on the "hypopnea" info that could be used by docs and patients for trending.

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by padster » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:51 pm

Pugsy wrote:
padster wrote:the data sometimes doesn't make sense. For instance, when i go to bed early and get a good 8-9 hours sleep, the AHI & number of events has been generally higher than when i stay up till 2-3am and only catch 5 to 6 hours sleep. Common sense would suggest that it'd be the other way round,
I have seen this often. My AHI is always lower on shorter hours of sleep nights. In fact about the only time I have ever had a 0.0 AHI has been with limited hours of sleep (like 3 to 4). I think that as I sleep longer it just stands to reason that I will get more REM sleep and REM sleep is my main OSA culprit. The more REM I get the greater my chances of having a few events slip past the defenses.
Since i'm getting Clear Airway events, i'm wondering if REM sleep may be linked to Central/CA events as well. Wikipedia explains that:

During REM sleep in particular, muscle tone of the throat and neck, as well as the vast majority of all skeletal muscles, is almost completely attenuated, allowing the tongue and soft palate/oropharynx to relax, and in the case of sleep apnea, to impede the flow of air to a degree ranging from light snoring to complete collapse.

However, i havn't come across any information associating CSAs with REM sleep.
Pugsy wrote:I had another alien visit night before last. Give me a little while and I will update my alien thread and show you.
Truckload of centrals in one tight little group and this time I can't explain them away with being awake. I don't know if I was or not because I don't remember.
Is it fair to say that there's a lot more research and conclusive info on OSAs in comparison to CSAs and the potential causes of Clear Airway events recorded by home xPAP machines? If so, do you think it's because the latter is more difficult to 'identify/treat', less profitable or has a smaller number of sufferers vs OSA?
kaiasgram wrote:Not a clue ! I was still in shock and not yet cpap-literate when I bought my S9. If I had it do to over again I'd buy the Respironics, partly because it does flag RERAs (I still don't know if I have RERAs that could be contributing to my poor sleep), and partly because I had the opportunity to use a Respironics machine at the sleep lab last weekend and found it more compatible with my natural breathing -- even at the very low pressure of 4. And last but not least, it's a less expensive machine. Next time...
I'm about to purchase the S9 that's been loaned to me to test and your post does seem to point towards Respironics being a better buy. Can you please share a little more about why you "found it more compatible with my natural breathing"? I haven't had a chance to test the Respironics so i don't really have a basis for assessing the comfort level of breathing with the S9. Also, since the Respironics can flag RERAs, how come you "still don't know if I have RERAs"?

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by padster » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:03 pm

jnk wrote:Home machines do a pretty good job of scoring apneas, since any 10-second pause in breathing can be considered some kind of apnea. But home machines still score some pauses in breathing that would be ignored in a lab.

Home machines, don't do a very good job of scoring "hypopneas," though, since ALL the machines can see is the breathing, not the O2 saturation or the arousal.
Although home machines will never be as accurate as a lab test, it'd be great if they could come up with a home system that integrated the existing PAP machines with a (i) sophisticated oximeter* (ii) device like the ZEO to give data on sleep staging (even if it's not 100% accurate) (iii) accelerometer or something similar to detect supine/non-supine sleep positioning and (iv) anything else that might be useful in giving us a clearer picture and is feasible to incorporate.

* "one of the new pulse oximeters with not just heart rate and SpO2 percentage measured but “perfusion” (amount of blood in the finger) measured as well … Perfusion would tell, rather indirectly, if the event aroused you" … from Todzo's comment in viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79766&start=45
jnk wrote:My only complaint with S9 ResMed home-treatment-machine scoring is that they have apparently given up trying to score "hypopneas" at all. I don't think they've even released their proprietary definition of "hypopnea" in the S9. Is seems they got tired of being accused of "overscoring" hypopneas in the S8, and now they've thrown in the towel and refuse to pass on the "hypopnea" info that could be used by docs and patients for trending.
Does this mean that they are not underscoring "hypopneas" in the S9 or still 'overscoring' them but just not passing on the info? In my S9 data, i get Clear Airway events and almost zero OSAs, but i do get "hypopneas" here and there, which until now, i didn't know whether to take seriously or not.

Overall, all things considered, is the S9 Autoset a better investment compared to Respironics or any of the other brands if cost is not the primary concern?

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by Pugsy » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:22 pm

padster wrote:Is it fair to say that there's a lot more research and conclusive info on OSAs in comparison to CSAs and the potential causes of Clear Airway events recorded by home xPAP machines? If so, do you think it's because the latter is more difficult to 'identify/treat', less profitable or has a smaller number of sufferers vs OSA?
Home machines have a limitation that they don't know if we are asleep or not. They can and will flag both obstructive apnea and clear airway apneas while we are awake. They aren't perfect but they are all we have on a nightly basis. No one wants to keep going into a sleep lab to get an idea what is going on.
Apneas are easy to identify in a lab setting...not so easy to make a perfect clear cut identification at home sometimes.
Plain jane vanilla OSA is more common than complex sleep apnea (mixture of centrals and obstructives) or central sleep apnea. Treating of either is really fairly clear cut once the proper diagnosis is made. That is where those high dollar machines come in when people have more centrals than we would like to see.
The problem is trying to make the diagnosis from what we see on a home machine within the limitations that it has...absence of brain waves to confirm really asleep or the thoracic effort belt.
So it isn't so much that centrals are that much harder to treat...yeah maybe a little more difficult but the main thing is getting the proper diagnosis to start with.

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by kaiasgram » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:25 pm

padster wrote:
kaiasgram wrote:Not a clue ! I was still in shock and not yet cpap-literate when I bought my S9. If I had it do to over again I'd buy the Respironics, partly because it does flag RERAs (I still don't know if I have RERAs that could be contributing to my poor sleep), and partly because I had the opportunity to use a Respironics machine at the sleep lab last weekend and found it more compatible with my natural breathing -- even at the very low pressure of 4. And last but not least, it's a less expensive machine. Next time...
I'm about to purchase the S9 that's been loaned to me to test and your post does seem to point towards Respironics being a better buy. Can you please share a little more about why you "found it more compatible with my natural breathing"? I haven't had a chance to test the Respironics so i don't really have a basis for assessing the comfort level of breathing with the S9. Also, since the Respironics can flag RERAs, how come you "still don't know if I have RERAs"?
Hi Padster -- As for your first question, I don't know quite how to describe the difference, but it just felt like an easier breathing rhythm for me. I was using my own mask so I know the difference wasn't the mask. When I woke up a couple of times I felt like I didn't even have a mask on and was breathing naturally. At home on my S9 my minimum pressure is 6, and sometimes it feels like not enough air. At the sleep lab on the Respironics I was at a pressure of 4 the whole night and felt very comfortable. It's such an individual thing, though, you or another person could find the S9 more to your liking (well, as much as anyone can like a cpap machine ).

Your second question: The reason I don't know if I have RERAs was that my sleep study was a bust -- I only slept for an hour and a half or so, and laid awake the rest of the time. Since I was awake there was no opportunity to observe or record anything. All I know is that during the one sleep cycle I had, which did get me to a bit of REM sleep, I had no events that prompted the tech to turn my pressure up. Whether I would have RERAs in deeper longer sleep is still an unknown.

But to go back to your original question, 4 cm pressure was apparently enough to prevent OSAs for the brief time I slept, though there's no way to know if I would have had any events during that time anyway.

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by padster » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:54 pm

Pugsy wrote:
padster wrote:Is it fair to say that there's a lot more research and conclusive info on OSAs in comparison to CSAs and the potential causes of Clear Airway events recorded by home xPAP machines? If so, do you think it's because the latter is more difficult to 'identify/treat', less profitable or has a smaller number of sufferers vs OSA?
Home machines have a limitation that they don't know if we are asleep or not. They can and will flag both obstructive apnea and clear airway apneas while we are awake. They aren't perfect but they are all we have on a nightly basis. No one wants to keep going into a sleep lab to get an idea what is going on.
Apneas are easy to identify in a lab setting...not so easy to make a perfect clear cut identification at home sometimes.
Plain jane vanilla OSA is more common than complex sleep apnea (mixture of centrals and obstructives) or central sleep apnea. Treating of either is really fairly clear cut once the proper diagnosis is made. That is where those high dollar machines come in when people have more centrals than we would like to see.
The problem is trying to make the diagnosis from what we see on a home machine within the limitations that it has...absence of brain waves to confirm really asleep or the thoracic effort belt.
So it isn't so much that centrals are that much harder to treat...yeah maybe a little more difficult but the main thing is getting the proper diagnosis to start with.
I agree Pugsy. Posted my reply in a dedicated thread to explore this topic further.
viewtopic/t81161/The-Challenges-of-Accu ... Apnea.html

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by padster » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:59 pm

kaiasgram wrote:Hi Padster -- As for your first question, I don't know quite how to describe the difference, but it just felt like an easier breathing rhythm for me. I was using my own mask so I know the difference wasn't the mask. When I woke up a couple of times I felt like I didn't even have a mask on and was breathing naturally. At home on my S9 my minimum pressure is 6, and sometimes it feels like not enough air. At the sleep lab on the Respironics I was at a pressure of 4 the whole night and felt very comfortable. It's such an individual thing, though, you or another person could find the S9 more to your liking (well, as much as anyone can like a cpap machine ).

Your second question: The reason I don't know if I have RERAs was that my sleep study was a bust -- I only slept for an hour and a half or so, and laid awake the rest of the time. Since I was awake there was no opportunity to observe or record anything. All I know is that during the one sleep cycle I had, which did get me to a bit of REM sleep, I had no events that prompted the tech to turn my pressure up. Whether I would have RERAs in deeper longer sleep is still an unknown.

But to go back to your original question, 4 cm pressure was apparently enough to prevent OSAs for the brief time I slept, though there's no way to know if I would have had any events during that time anyway.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

"I only slept for an hour and a half or so, and laid awake the rest of the time." ... was this because of sleeping in a new environment with someone watching you?

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by kaiasgram » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:36 pm

padster wrote:"I only slept for an hour and a half or so, and laid awake the rest of the time." ... was this because of sleeping in a new environment with someone watching you?
No, the environment wasn't so bad and I was comfortable with the tech. I woke up because of pain from the EEG leads pressing into the back of my head (I sleep on my back) where my scalp was already irritated from my mask strap (allergy or contact dermatitis, my doc isn't sure). It didn't hurt when I went to sleep but the leads and likely the adhesives used to keep them on reinjured the area and woke me up. I changed positions but it was too late, the pain kept me awake the rest of the night.

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Re: Is it possible for 4cm Pressure to Totally Knock Out OSAs?

Post by archangle » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:21 am

S9 AutoSet doesn't score RERA, but they do score flow limitation, which gives you some information.

I think jnk is overly pessimistic about the S9 or PRS1 machines being able to distinguish CA from OSA, and for determining hypopneas, even though they are technically valid and are legitimate concerns. The CPAP machine data is NOT worthless.

A PSG does probably do a better job, but remember that even with a full in-lab PSG, there's no quantum difference between an apnea or hypopnea and a lesser breathing event. You draw a hard line when scoring between, for instance, a 9 second event and an 11 second event, or a O2 drop of x percent and a lesser event. Your body doesn't see any such distinction.

Look at the waveforms and data and see how long and how completely you stop breathing. If you're not breathing for a long time, the harm to your body is the same no matter how you label it.

Obstructive vs. central does help you figure out how to treat the apneas.

The concerns about not knowing if you're awake are definitely valid.

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