British Social Medicine - Disaster

[Goofproof]

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.

Actually, that often made quotation is factually wrong.

First, we will never "run out" of other peoples money. And secondly, the government can continue to print money until the sun explodes. While that causes inflation with the debt paid off with devalued currency, those printing presses run by the fed will never run out of ink.

In point what you say is true, until we lose the ability to print money based on nothing we can keep on printing it. The problem comes from the more we print the less buying power the dollars are worth. That makes the saying "A penny saved is a penny earned", It becomes "A penny saved is a waste of effort", And there's also the crowd watching you pick it up, and laughing at you wondering why you would waste your time. Jim

[Hosehead4ever]

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.

What would be really nice is if those of us with severe disabilities could go to non-political forums such as this and not get reminded yet again what undeserving, lazy thieves we are for asking to not live on the street and not to be hungry. You think everyone is lucky enough to get the proceeds of a spagetti dinner or that that would even come close to paying our medical bills, much less our other living expenses? I didn't ask for this disability, I didn't do anything to cause it, and my case was so strong that I got approved in 7 months, when it takes years of appeals and lawyers for most people who apply. My disability significantly interferes with my daily functioning as is the case for most of the significantly disabled people I know on benefits. We aren't socialists out to steal from the hardworking, and your use of socialism in this context is incorrect anyway. Its okay that you're confused about it given the decades long cold war we had with the dirty commies. (Here is a quick lesson FYI: http://steadystaterevolution.org/capita ... communism/)

The simple fact is that we are all better off when we are all better off. And the truth of the matter is that the government allocates money to welfare in large part to keep the economy functioning, not because of some philanthropic desire. Most respected economists echo this statement.

As fas as the NHS is concerned, my partner is British and has nothing but raving positive reviews of the care he received in the UK and the care his family still receives there. Yes, it has issues. Some things, like the people who have to wait for hours in an ambulance queue because there are no beds in the A&E (ER), are kind of disturbing. On the flip side, women in labor/post-partum are treated horribly almost everywhere you go (Google 'birth rape' to see the legion of stories that happen right here in the US.)

I don't support the individual mandate part of obamacare because we'd save a crap ton of money with a single payer system instead of this insurance-based debacle we have now that only serves to fatten the pockets of top execs. We would have a sinlge-payer system now if Kennedy hadn't died. Think doctors are getting paid too much? One of the ways the NHS is able to save costs is because education was historically free in Britain. Try getting out of medical school with 100-200K in student loans and see what you charge your patients. And if you really want to save money, rather than just piss in the wind about 'socialism' then research should return to the domain of the universities and get out of corporate hands.

You know, there are a lot of ways to improve the system rather than just excoriating the poor as 'takers until the well runs dry'.

[RogerSC]

Regardless of the article the system is still vastly superior, cheaper and more effective and treats many more people - in fact all the people, not just the privileged few, then the American system. In fact just about every country in the developed world has a better functioning system that doesn't leave people dying alone at home without treatment.
The incidences quoted above are statistically rarer then the number of people dying from lack of any care in the USA and are no justification for promoting the American system.

Well said. The American "system" works for the upper layer of those with jobs, and those with enough money to pay their own way. Medicare works for the elderly, by and large, although it still costs more than some can afford. The rest of us fight for every morsel of health care. Neither of my daughters, both employed, have decent health care through their employer. I'm helping my younger daughter pay for her health care, otherwise she would be out of luck altogether. Next year, finally, things are looking much better for her, thanks to that awful Obamacare that most people on this forum hate and fear. My older daughter is basically gambling that she doesn't have any catastrophic problems. Luckily she's pretty healthy at the moment.

[NateS]

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.

What would be really nice is if those of us with severe disabilities could go to non-political forums such as this and not get reminded yet again what undeserving, lazy thieves we are for asking to not live on the street and not to be hungry. You think everyone is lucky enough to get the proceeds of a spagetti dinner or that that would even come close to paying our medical bills, much less our other living expenses? I didn't ask for this disability, I didn't do anything to cause it, and my case was so strong that I got approved in 7 months, when it takes years of appeals and lawyers for most people who apply. My disability significantly interferes with my daily functioning as is the case for most of the significantly disabled people I know on benefits. We aren't socialists out to steal from the hardworking, and your use of socialism in this context is incorrect anyway. Its okay that you're confused about it given the decades long cold war we had with the dirty commies. (Here is a quick lesson FYI: http://steadystaterevolution.org/capita ... communism/)

The simple fact is that we are all better off when we are all better off. And the truth of the matter is that the government allocates money to welfare in large part to keep the economy functioning, not because of some philanthropic desire. Most respected economists echo this statement.

As fas as the NHS is concerned, my partner is British and has nothing but raving positive reviews of the care he received in the UK and the care his family still receives there. Yes, it has issues. Some things, like the people who have to wait for hours in an ambulance queue because there are no beds in the A&E (ER), are kind of disturbing. On the flip side, women in labor/post-partum are treated horribly almost everywhere you go (Google 'birth rape' to see the legion of stories that happen right here in the US.)

I don't support the individual mandate part of obamacare because we'd save a crap ton of money with a single payer system instead of this insurance-based debacle we have now that only serves to fatten the pockets of top execs. We would have a sinlge-payer system now if Kennedy hadn't died. Think doctors are getting paid too much? One of the ways the NHS is able to save costs is because education was historically free in Britain. Try getting out of medical school with 100-200K in student loans and see what you charge your patients. And if you really want to save money, rather than just piss in the wind about 'socialism' then research should return to the domain of the universities and get out of corporate hands.

You know, there are a lot of ways to improve the system rather than just excoriating the poor as 'takers until the well runs dry'.

Well said! +1

Best wishes, Nate

[RogerSC]

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.

What would be really nice is if those of us with severe disabilities could go to non-political forums such as this and not get reminded yet again what undeserving, lazy thieves we are for asking to not live on the street and not to be hungry. You think everyone is lucky enough to get the proceeds of a spagetti dinner or that that would even come close to paying our medical bills, much less our other living expenses? I didn't ask for this disability, I didn't do anything to cause it, and my case was so strong that I got approved in 7 months, when it takes years of appeals and lawyers for most people who apply. My disability significantly interferes with my daily functioning as is the case for most of the significantly disabled people I know on benefits. We aren't socialists out to steal from the hardworking, and your use of socialism in this context is incorrect anyway. Its okay that you're confused about it given the decades long cold war we had with the dirty commies. (Here is a quick lesson FYI: http://steadystaterevolution.org/capita ... communism/)

The simple fact is that we are all better off when we are all better off. And the truth of the matter is that the government allocates money to welfare in large part to keep the economy functioning, not because of some philanthropic desire. Most respected economists echo this statement.

As fas as the NHS is concerned, my partner is British and has nothing but raving positive reviews of the care he received in the UK and the care his family still receives there. Yes, it has issues. Some things, like the people who have to wait for hours in an ambulance queue because there are no beds in the A&E (ER), are kind of disturbing. On the flip side, women in labor/post-partum are treated horribly almost everywhere you go (Google 'birth rape' to see the legion of stories that happen right here in the US.)

I don't support the individual mandate part of obamacare because we'd save a crap ton of money with a single payer system instead of this insurance-based debacle we have now that only serves to fatten the pockets of top execs. We would have a sinlge-payer system now if Kennedy hadn't died. Think doctors are getting paid too much? One of the ways the NHS is able to save costs is because education was historically free in Britain. Try getting out of medical school with 100-200K in student loans and see what you charge your patients. And if you really want to save money, rather than just piss in the wind about 'socialism' then research should return to the domain of the universities and get out of corporate hands.

You know, there are a lot of ways to improve the system rather than just excoriating the poor as 'takers until the well runs dry'.

Well said! +1

Best wishes, Nate :D

I agree as well, and hope that you (and anyone else that reads this) never have to live in the street, get enough to eat, and get needed medical care.

[Lukie]

Most health care systems could use some improvement.
The American system is okay if you have good insurance but if you are unable to
get insurance for whatever reason it is a total disaster.
The British System is better than nothing at all. Many Americans have nothing at all.

[49er]

I not going to get into any debates except to say I can't begin to explain to this board the relief I feel knowing that thanks to having Obamacare effective 1/1/14, then I can pursue having nasal surgery if I come to the conclusion that is the path I need to take in order to be able tolerate pap therapy which so far, I have been unable to do. Hopefully, that won't be necessary as I am making very slow progress using a sleep weaver elan mask. But it is nice to know that this is in my back pocket.

49er

[JohnBFisher]

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.

What would be really nice is if those of us with severe disabilities could go to non-political forums such as this and not get reminded yet again what undeserving, lazy thieves we are for asking to not live on the street and not to be hungry. You think everyone is lucky enough to get the proceeds of a spagetti dinner or that that would even come close to paying our medical bills, much less our other living expenses? I didn't ask for this disability, I didn't do anything to cause it, and my case was so strong that I got approved in 7 months, when it takes years of appeals and lawyers for most people who apply. My disability significantly interferes with my daily functioning as is the case for most of the significantly disabled people I know on benefits. We aren't socialists out to steal from the hardworking, and your use of socialism in this context is incorrect anyway. Its okay that you're confused about it given the decades long cold war we had with the dirty commies. (Here is a quick lesson FYI: http://steadystaterevolution.org/capita ... communism/)

The simple fact is that we are all better off when we are all better off. And the truth of the matter is that the government allocates money to welfare in large part to keep the economy functioning, not because of some philanthropic desire. Most respected economists echo this statement.

As fas as the NHS is concerned, my partner is British and has nothing but raving positive reviews of the care he received in the UK and the care his family still receives there. Yes, it has issues. Some things, like the people who have to wait for hours in an ambulance queue because there are no beds in the A&E (ER), are kind of disturbing. On the flip side, women in labor/post-partum are treated horribly almost everywhere you go (Google 'birth rape' to see the legion of stories that happen right here in the US.)

I don't support the individual mandate part of obamacare because we'd save a crap ton of money with a single payer system instead of this insurance-based debacle we have now that only serves to fatten the pockets of top execs. We would have a sinlge-payer system now if Kennedy hadn't died. Think doctors are getting paid too much? One of the ways the NHS is able to save costs is because education was historically free in Britain. Try getting out of medical school with 100-200K in student loans and see what you charge your patients. And if you really want to save money, rather than just piss in the wind about 'socialism' then research should return to the domain of the universities and get out of corporate hands.

You know, there are a lot of ways to improve the system rather than just excoriating the poor as 'takers until the well runs dry'.

Very well said. I completely understand your point of view. I was approved for Social Security Disability Income after only 3 months. And that is NOT a hand out. I #WORKED AND PAID# for that over many years. In addition to maxing out my payments into that find, I always carried Disability Insurance.

Even so, I am horrified by the Scrooge like approach I have seen recently. For a country that often claims to be Christian, we ought to either admit we are not following the teachings of a certain wandering teacher, or admit that we are not a Christian nation.

[JohnBFisher]

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.

What would be really nice is if those of us with severe disabilities could go to non-political forums such as this and not get reminded yet again what undeserving, lazy thieves we are for asking to not live on the street and not to be hungry. You think everyone is lucky enough to get the proceeds of a spagetti dinner or that that would even come close to paying our medical bills, much less our other living expenses? I didn't ask for this disability, I didn't do anything to cause it, and my case was so strong that I got approved in 7 months, when it takes years of appeals and lawyers for most people who apply. My disability significantly interferes with my daily functioning as is the case for most of the significantly disabled people I know on benefits. We aren't socialists out to steal from the hardworking, and your use of socialism in this context is incorrect anyway. Its okay that you're confused about it given the decades long cold war we had with the dirty commies. (Here is a quick lesson FYI: http://steadystaterevolution.org/capita ... communism/)

The simple fact is that we are all better off when we are all better off. And the truth of the matter is that the government allocates money to welfare in large part to keep the economy functioning, not because of some philanthropic desire. Most respected economists echo this statement.

As fas as the NHS is concerned, my partner is British and has nothing but raving positive reviews of the care he received in the UK and the care his family still receives there. Yes, it has issues. Some things, like the people who have to wait for hours in an ambulance queue because there are no beds in the A&E (ER), are kind of disturbing. On the flip side, women in labor/post-partum are treated horribly almost everywhere you go (Google 'birth rape' to see the legion of stories that happen right here in the US.)

I don't support the individual mandate part of obamacare because we'd save a crap ton of money with a single payer system instead of this insurance-based debacle we have now that only serves to fatten the pockets of top execs. We would have a sinlge-payer system now if Kennedy hadn't died. Think doctors are getting paid too much? One of the ways the NHS is able to save costs is because education was historically free in Britain. Try getting out of medical school with 100-200K in student loans and see what you charge your patients. And if you really want to save money, rather than just piss in the wind about 'socialism' then research should return to the domain of the universities and get out of corporate hands.

You know, there are a lot of ways to improve the system rather than just excoriating the poor as 'takers until the well runs dry'.

Very well said. I completely understand your point of view. I was approved for Social Security Disability Income after only 3 months. And that is NOT a hand out. I #WORKED AND PAID# for that over many years. In addition to maxing out my payments into that find, I always carried Disability Insurance.

Even so, I am horrified by the Scrooge like approach I have seen recently. For a country that often claims to be Christian, we ought to either admit we are not following the teachings of a certain wandering teacher, or admit that we are not a Christian nation.

[ChicagoGranny]

For a country that often claims to be Christian, we ought to either admit we are not following the teachings of a certain wandering teacher, or admit that we are not a Christian nation.

The Bible I read commands me to help my neighbor.

Does your Bible say to form governments and force others to help my neighbor?

[Jaywolf]

I was about to comment on that but I am not touching it. I don't think a religion based discussion or a political based one is particularly helpful on this.

What I will do is say what I said when a work colleague of mine said to me that he believes that if people smoke or eat too much and become obese then he shouldn't have to be forced to pay for the additional premiums caused by their healthcare. I told him that I feel that I have a responsibility to take care of all regardless of their circumstances because that is what a civilized society does.

Knowing he is a biker and chooses not to wear a helmet.. I then said. Don't worry, when you have an accident and have injuries due to not wearing a helmet I will gladly take care of you. That is the humane and civilized thing to do. If it is not where do you draw the line? Do we decide that the child that is born severely disabled, but her parents are middle income and cannot pay for her care, is left with no healthcare because why should we pay for it? Or a person hopelessly hooked on drugs because they are weak and made a mistake? Or the murderer in jail? Or a person so old they are going to die anyway so why bother?

I, for one, can't draw that line. Many things are a privilege in this life, healthcare should never be one of them.

[BlackSpinner]

For a country that often claims to be Christian, we ought to either admit we are not following the teachings of a certain wandering teacher, or admit that we are not a Christian nation.

The Bible I read commands me to help my neighbor.

Does your Bible say to form governments and force others to help my neighbor?

But in American Christianity - only if the neighbour is the right colour, income level, right marital status, religion and has sex in the approved way, otherwise they are not a neighbour.

[robysue]

I was about to comment on that but I am not touching it. I don't think a religion based discussion or a political based one is particularly helpful on this.

What I will do is say what I said when a work colleague of mine said to me that he believes that if people smoke or eat too much and become obese then he shouldn't have to be forced to pay for the additional premiums caused by their healthcare. I told him that I feel that I have a responsibility to take care of all regardless of their circumstances because that is what a civilized society does.

Knowing he is a biker and chooses not to wear a helmet.. I then said. Don't worry, when you have an accident and have injuries due to not wearing a helmet I will gladly take care of you. That is the humane and civilized thing to do. If it is not where do you draw the line? Do we decide that the child that is born severely disabled, but her parents are middle income and cannot pay for her care, is left with no healthcare because why should we pay for it? Or a person hopelessly hooked on drugs because they are weak and made a mistake? Or the murderer in jail? Or a person so old they are going to die anyway so why bother?

I, for one, can't draw that line. Many things are a privilege in this life, healthcare should never be one of them.

+1

[NachtWürger]

But in American Christianity - only if the neighbour is the right colour, income level, right marital status, religion and has sex in the approved way, otherwise they are not a neighbour.

And you became an expert and judge on these matters in America how?

[Julie]

Anyone remember (or ever hear before) this poem?

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me."

Who do you want to be in that?