OT: overweight-man-kicked-off-southwest-flight

[jdm2857]

It's not only left to right.

Where the center of gravity of the plane falls front to back is important, too.

[Hose_Head]

We all should be screaming at the airlines because they are the ones who have created the problem.

I doubt that will work because it is actually a combination of the laws of physics, math, and economics that cause the problem. More weight means more fuel consumption and increased ticket expense. Bigger seats mean fewer seats which then means fewer paying passengers and higher ticket prices. Higher ticket prices means the airline competitors that don't make bigger seats will get most of your customers. The idea that this is discrimination because some people are haters is not correct.

If you want to pass legislation to make a minimum seat size mandatory, write your congress-people (and be aware that that will increase ticket prices for everyone. And even then, there will still be some people that are too large to fit in that mandated minimum.) But until that happens, there is something that an overweight person can do about it, while there is nothing that someone forced to sit next to them can do.

You've adequately detailed the reasons why the airlines have chosen to participate in this race to the bottom in terms of accommodations on an aircraft. But it was still the airlines' choice to participate. I'm afraid we may be headed for the Ryan-Air model with standing room only!. As I wrote in my earlier post: If airline practices continue, it won't be too far into the future that we find aircraft that are designed to accommodate only those who represent the smallest 60%, 50%, 40%, 30% ... of the populace. The lower limit is going to be controlled only by there no longer being enough people that fit the demographic to allow the company to continue to be profitable.

Discrimination? Government control? I never said anything about those angles. I've only been arguing about the laws of supply and demand and the airlines' efforts to maximize profits. I believe there is a market out there for reasonably priced seats that represent the level of comfort in travel that was more common in times-past. By reasonably, I'm talking about prices that allow airlines to stay profitable while not ripping people off with current-level first class and business class prices. Airlines could market their seats as extra large, commodious, and comfortable, all for a "reasonable" additional fee. I haven't heard any of this type of marketing. Have you?

Also disagree with your point that there is nothing that the person seated next to an obese person can do nothing about it. There's nothing stopping him/her from buying a first class or business class ticket just as could have the obese person. Not fair. But it IS reality!

[Space Oddity]

I've only been arguing about the laws of supply and demand and the airlines' efforts to maximize profits.

Maximize profits? That brought a laugh.

The airline industry in North America has profits of about 1% and in the best years 2%. In the worse years they have losses. In 2013 they hope to see 1%.

These are razor thin margins. Compare to 5% for all U.S. businesses.

The airline business is capital intensive and they need 7 to 8% net profits to recapture their capital investments. Something will have to give in the next five years. Hopefully, new technology will reduce their costs and allow them to continue to innovate and provide service.

I believe there is a market out there for reasonably priced seats that represent the level of comfort in travel that was more common in times-past.

What is meant by reasonably priced? Much higher prices than today that will pay for larger seats/higher service levels and allow a 7% return?

If there is such a market, someone will step in to provide the service. Currently it is provided by private aviation and charters.

Is there a substantial market for larger seats that would require higher prices? Consumers and businesses have so far said, "Definitely not."

[BlackSpinner]

I've only been arguing about the laws of supply and demand and the airlines' efforts to maximize profits.

Maximize profits? That brought a laugh.

The airline industry in North America has profits of about 1% and in the best years 2%. In the worse years they have losses. In 2013 they hope to see 1%.

Yes, I worked for a major airline - with any luck they hoped to see a profit in the last week of the year - not on Black Friday!
There were constant contest for the employees to "find" excess weight, to make things cheaper, and more stream lined. There are much fewer airlines then there were 8 years ago, most of the "nice" ones went bankrupt.

Higher priced bigger seats don't sell except on long haul flights over the pacific. Most of the airline personnel flew first or business class because that was where the empty seats were.

[Kiralynx]

"In other words, thin does not necessarily equal healthy. Overweight does not necessarily equal unhealthy."

Not sure where you get your facts or conclusions, but the first part is 100% correct thin does not equal healthy. The 2nd part is the opposite, you are 100% wrong.
There is so much scientific evidence that being overweight increases your risk for so many diseases. No way you can argue that being overweight is healthy.

Sorry -- YOU are wrong. My statement came out of the book I referenced, Beyond A Shadow of a Diet. If you want the studies, the references, etc., get a copy of the book and read it, as I did.

Fat is the new pejorative. You can't call a black person a ni----. You can't use all sorts of pejoratives for race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. But, oh, it is SO all right to go after those d@mned fatties, who just won't stop stuffing their faces and lose some weight.

Did you ever think that the association of fat with illness is because the fat people won't go to the doctor until it's really dreadfully serious because they know they will be harassed about their weight?

There are PLENTY of studies which show that fat people receive sub-standard medical care.

And I'm proof of that. After I lost 180 pounds (by finding a lifestyle which treated my untreated celiac and other gut issues which were dismissed for 25 years with "Stop stuffing your face and lose some weight, and it will all clear up. Try getting a little exercise, like pushing yourself away from the table," and having the fact that I put in 9-10 hours of water-walking every week ignored, I started having hip pain. I wasn't sleeping well -- I was awakened at least twice a night by severe pain. I went to the doctor. I was told to "Stop stuffing my face and lose some weight, and it would ALL CLEAR UP, because the pain was because I was TOO FAT." I pointed out that I had, in fact, lost a very significant amount of weight, and was told that if I really cared about my health, I wouldn't stop until I had lost the rest.

So for the next seven years, I was in constant pain, exhausted all the time.

I exercised regularly -- in fact, more than one ripped and cut "super shape" watched me quietly and patiently doing my exercises and wondered at my amazing stamina. But my weight never went down farther, despite that.

And then I presented with post-menopausal bleeding. And was told to "Stop stuffing my face and LOSE SOME WEIGHT, and it would ALL CLEAR UP!" Luckily, I got a second opinion, because my weight had nothing to do with the symptoms -- I had uterine cancer. The now-former GP, when informed of this, said, "Well, and how did THIS diagnosis come about?" like I would run out and get a cancer diagnosis for the fun of it. He got REAL quiet when I told him that I had presented with the symptoms three months earlier and he'd blown me off.

After my surgery, the pain would NOT go away. And that's how I ended up seeing a pain-management doctor who sent me for a sleep study, and found out that I'd had untreated sleep apnea for seven and a half years.

I'm facing an appointment in two weeks which I dread. Because I'm going to have to confront yet another medical practitioner about fat prejudice. It isn't fun. I'd rather just not go. But I'm due for the labs which may -- or may not -- tell me that I've reached five years cancer-free.

And after that? Well, I've been planning, and dreaming about a trip to the Canadian Rockies. We need to fly there. But I may have to put it off until my husband has the time for us to drive. Because I honestly don't want to face the TSA and the stupid airlines and their stupid narrow seats.

I've had it with the emotional abuse that gets heaped on fat people.

I don't have diabetes. I don't have heart disease. I don't have high cholesterol. I don't have high blood pressure. Funny thing, my Mom, who was 5'3" and 115 pounds had the last three. Mom probably had untreated sleep apnea, too, because everyone knows it's only fatties who get apnea.

So no, fat does not necessarily equal ill-health.

[49er]

Great post Kiralynx. You should post this on Kevin MD as a guest blogger.

49er

"In other words, thin does not necessarily equal healthy. Overweight does not necessarily equal unhealthy."

Not sure where you get your facts or conclusions, but the first part is 100% correct thin does not equal healthy. The 2nd part is the opposite, you are 100% wrong.
There is so much scientific evidence that being overweight increases your risk for so many diseases. No way you can argue that being overweight is healthy.

Sorry -- YOU are wrong. My statement came out of the book I referenced, Beyond A Shadow of a Diet. If you want the studies, the references, etc., get a copy of the book and read it, as I did.

Fat is the new pejorative. You can't call a black person a ni----. You can't use all sorts of pejoratives for race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. But, oh, it is SO all right to go after those d@mned fatties, who just won't stop stuffing their faces and lose some weight.

Did you ever think that the association of fat with illness because the fat people won't go to the doctor until it's really dreadfully serious because they know they will be harassed about their weight?

There are PLENTY of studies which show that fat people receive sub-standard medical care.

And I'm proof of that. After I lost 180 pounds (by finding a lifestyle which treated my untreated celiac and other gut issues which were dismissed for 25 years with "Stop stuffing your face and lose some weight, and it will all clear up. Try getting a little exercise, like pushing yourself away from the table," and having the fact that I put in 9-10 hours of water-walking every week ignored, I started having hip pain. I wasn't sleeping well -- I was awakened at least twice a night by severe pain. I went to the doctor. I was told to "Stop stuffing my face and lose some weight, and it would ALL CLEAR UP, because the pain was because I was TOO FAT." I pointed out that I had, in fact, lost a very significant amount of weight, and was told that if I really cared about my health, I wouldn't stop until I had lost the rest.

So for the next seven years, I was in constant pain, exhausted all the time.

I exercised regularly -- in fact, more than one ripped and cut "super shape" watched me quietly and patiently doing my exercises and wondered at my amazing stamina. But my weight never went down farther, despite that.

And then I presented with post-menopausal bleeding. And was told to "Stop stuffing my face and LOSE SOME WEIGHT, and it would ALL CLEAR UP!" Luckily, I got a second opinion, because my weight had nothing to do with the symptoms -- I had uterine cancer. The now-former GP, when informed of this, said, "Well, and how did THIS diagnosis come about?" like I would run out and get a cancer diagnosis for the fun of it. He got REAL quiet when I told him that I had presented with the symptoms three months earlier and he'd blown me off.

After my surgery, the pain would NOT go away. And that's how I ended up seeing a pain-management doctor who sent me for a sleep study, and found out that I'd had untreated sleep apnea for seven and a half years.

I'm facing an appointment in two weeks which I dread. Because I'm going to have to confront yet another medical practitioner about fat prejudice. It isn't fun. I'd rather just not go. But I'm due for the labs which may -- or may not -- tell me that I've reached five years cancer-free.

And after that? Well, I've been planning, and dreaming about a trip to the Canadian Rockies. We need to fly there. But I may have to put it off until my husband has the time for us to drive. Because I honestly don't want to face the TSA and the stupid airlines and their stupid narrow seats.

I've had it with the emotional abuse that gets heaped on fat people.

I don't have diabetes. I don't have heart disease. I don't have high cholesterol. I don't have high blood pressure. Funny thing, my Mom, who was 5'3" and 115 pounds had the last three. Mom probably had untreated sleep apnea, too, because everyone knows it's only fatties who get apnea.

So no, fat does not necessarily equal ill-health.

[ChicagoGranny]

There are PLENTY of studies which show that fat people receive sub-standard medical care.

Are Doctors Nicer to Thinner Patients?
By TARA PARKER-POPE
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/2 ... face-bias/



Are doctors nicer to patients who aren’t fat?

A provocative new study suggests that they are — that thin patients are treated with more warmth and empathy than those who are overweight or obese.

For the study, published in the medical journal Obesity, researchers at Johns Hopkins obtained permission to record discussions between 39 primary care doctors and more than 200 patients who had high blood pressure.


Although patients were there to talk about blood pressure, not weight, most fell into the overweight or obese category. Only 28 were of normal weight, meaning they had a body mass index below 25. Of the remaining patients, 120 were obese (B.M.I. of 30 or greater) and 60 were classified as overweight (index of 25 to 30).

For the most part, all of the patients were treated about the same; there were no meaningful differences in the amount of time doctors spent with them or the topics discussed.

But when researchers analyzed transcripts of the visits, there was one striking difference. Doctors seemed just a bit nicer to their normal-weight patients, showing more empathy and warmth in their conversations. Although the study was relatively small, the findings are statistically significant.

“It’s not like the physicians were being overtly negative or harsh,” said the lead author, Dr. Kimberly A. Gudzune, an assistant professor of general internal medicine at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. “They were just not engaging patients in that rapport-building or making that emotional connection with the patient.”

In conversations with patients of normal weight, the doctors offered simple comments to show concern — for example, “I’m glad you’re feeling better” to a woman who had experienced hot flashes. When a normal-weight patient had trouble getting an appointment with a specialist, her doctor shared her concerns. “I agree with you,” the doctor said. “That gets extremely frustrating when that happens.”

Another patient lamented a scar on her leg after surgery and the ugly shoes she was forced to wear. “You went through a lot,” the doctor told her, adding compliments to lift her spirits. “You still got great legs. Chunky shoes are still in. Get something pretty, something for spring. That always makes you feel good.”

While such expressions of concern and empathy are not remarkable on their own, what was surprising was how absent they were in conversations with overweight and obese patients.

And statements like these are no small thing. Studies show that patients are far more likely to follow a doctor’s advice and to have a better health outcome when they believe their doctor empathizes with their plight.

“When there is increased empathy by the doctor, patients are more likely to report they are satisfied with their care, and they are more likely to adhere to recommendations of physicians,” Dr. Gudzune said. “There is evidence to show that after visits with more empathy, patients have improved clinical outcomes, so patients with diabetes have better blood sugar control or cholesterol is better controlled.”

Dr. David L. Katz, director of the Yale-Griffin University Prevention Research Center, says that overweight patients often complain to him that doctors appear judgmental about their weight, at the expense of other health concerns.

“You come in with a headache, and the doctors say, ‘You really need to lose weight.’ You have a sore throat, and the doctor says, ‘You really need to lose weight,’ ” he said. “These patients feel like the doctor doesn’t help them and they insult them, and so they stop going.”

In dealing with patients who are overweight, Dr. Katz added, doctors often show the same biases and prejudices as the culture at large. The problem may be compounded by the fact that doctors are trained to deal with immediate medical problems that have specific solutions, like a pill to lower blood pressure or emergency treatment for a heart attack. But obesity is a far more complex problem that isn’t easy to solve, and that can be frustrating to doctors.

“When we can’t fix what is broken we tend to behave badly,” he said.

Dr. Katz said his grandmother, who was obese, was so tired of physicians’ negative comments about her weight that she stopped going to the doctor altogether, even when she developed a breast tumor. When she finally sought treatment, she had advanced-stage breast cancer and died in her 50s.

“Every time she went to the doctor for any reason, they wagged a finger at her and talked about her weight,” Dr. Katz said. “We need to understand that the stakes are very high.”

The solution, he said, is better training so that medical students and doctors understand the complex nature of obesity as well as their own (perhaps subconscious) biases. Yale, for one, offers a continuing education program for doctors on compassionate and effective lifestyle counseling for patients.

“I think a lot of them are compassionate and don’t realize this is going on,” Dr. Katz said. “The antipathy for obesity is really rooted in our culture. We should expect better from doctors and train them better.”

[iglehart]

Kiralynx,
Everything you state is probably true. I am not talking about your personal stories or the fact that obese people are treated like crap. I don't know, but if I had to guess I would say yes.
I have personally seen obese people treated like crap, not at the doctors office but in many other places and yes its is wrong! I feel for you troubling past and hope things get better for you. I can
see this a very emotional subject for you and when emotion comes into things it can be hard for people to be open-minded. My simple point is that being obese is shown statistically to show
higher rates of many diseases.

I am NOT stating that being overwieght is the personal fault or that the doctor or anyone else should judge them. If you read my last post you will see I think just the opposite. I think obese person who
comes into the doctor should be treated with respect and the doctor should look for reasons why the weight won't come off and NOT just say stop eating.
I am agreeing with everything you are stating except, that being obese does not increase your chance at getting diseases. For whatever reason you are obese it does not matter, it DOES
increase your risk of many diseases. I will read the book your talking about. Please send me the exact title and author so I can better inform myself.

Also please dont take this as a personal attack, its not. I do empathize with your struggle as I have had weight issues my whole life.

[BlackSpinner]

Maybe but...

In a first-of-a-kind study, Canadian researchers tested children born to obese women, plus their brothers and sisters who were conceived after the mother had obesity surgery. Youngsters born after mom lost lots of weight were slimmer than their siblings. They also had fewer risk factors for diabetes or heart disease later in life.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/201 ... viour.html

[Kiralynx]

Maybe but...

In a first-of-a-kind study, Canadian researchers tested children born to obese women, plus their brothers and sisters who were conceived after the mother had obesity surgery. Youngsters born after mom lost lots of weight were slimmer than their siblings. They also had fewer risk factors for diabetes or heart disease later in life.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/201 ... viour.html

And, y'know what? It's been found that obesity surgery -- in some way not entirely understood as yet -- alters the gut biome.

Ergo, the children born to parents with a specific gut biome will tend to be fat, and vice versa.

My mom wasn't fat. I wasn't fat, until I was put on birth control pills at 24. The hormones screwed up my gut, and I put on buckets of weight, weight I couldn't get off again without literally starving myself. Weight that wouldn't STAY off, even when eating small amounts. In fact, even when I followed a medical weight loss program which involved 400 calories a day, I was accused of cheating. Because according to them, I should have lost 10 pounds a week, and I lost 4 pounds.

What it appears is that if the gut biome can be altered, then the body normalizes its weight. But we don't yet know how to do it on demand. Surgery is NOT the method.

[Todzo]

Maybe but...

In a first-of-a-kind study, Canadian researchers tested children born to obese women, plus their brothers and sisters who were conceived after the mother had obesity surgery. Youngsters born after mom lost lots of weight were slimmer than their siblings. They also had fewer risk factors for diabetes or heart disease later in life.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/201 ... viour.html

And, y'know what? It's been found that obesity surgery -- in some way not entirely understood as yet -- alters the gut biome.

Ergo, the children born to parents with a specific gut biome will tend to be fat, and vice versa.

My mom wasn't fat. I wasn't fat, until I was put on birth control pills at 24. The hormones screwed up my gut, and I put on buckets of weight, weight I couldn't get off again without literally starving myself. Weight that wouldn't STAY off, even when eating small amounts. In fact, even when I followed a medical weight loss program which involved 400 calories a day, I was accused of cheating. Because according to them, I should have lost 10 pounds a week, and I lost 4 pounds.

What it appears is that if the gut biome can be altered, then the body normalizes its weight. But we don't yet know how to do it on demand. Surgery is NOT the method.

Hi Kiralynx!

I agree that unhealthy microbiome is a likely candidate for the obesity crisis.

Those who deal in the actual research talk a lot about several things:

Processed foods - bad
GMOs - bad
rBHTs - bad
EATING A LOT OF VARIOUS VEGGIES (LIKE 50 DIFFERENT KINDS A DAY) - GOOD
EATING MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF FRUIT - GOOD
ACTIVE LIFESTYLE - GOOD
CONSISTENT SLEEP SCHEDULE - GOOD
REASONABLE LIFE STRESS LEVELS - GOOD
GETTING A LOT OF UNPOLLUTED FRESH AIR - GOOD
BEING MUCH LESS OF A CLEAN FREAK (LIKE - NO DISINFECTANTS) - GOOD

Some day in the future, rather than pump people full of antibiotics we will simply add the right bodies (bacteria, fungus, virus, yeast, prion) to help deal with the unwanted or over expressed invaders. We are a super organism after all.

Have a great week!

Todzo

[Kiralynx]

I agree that unhealthy microbiome is a likely candidate for the obesity crisis.

Those who deal in the actual research talk a lot about several things:

Processed foods - bad
GMOs - bad
rBHTs - bad
EATING A LOT OF VARIOUS VEGGIES (LIKE 50 DIFFERENT KINDS A DAY) - GOOD
EATING MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF FRUIT - GOOD
ACTIVE LIFESTYLE - GOOD
CONSISTENT SLEEP SCHEDULE - GOOD
REASONABLE LIFE STRESS LEVELS - GOOD
GETTING A LOT OF UNPOLLUTED FRESH AIR - GOOD
BEING MUCH LESS OF A CLEAN FREAK (LIKE - NO DISINFECTANTS) - GOOD

Some day in the future, rather than pump people full of antibiotics we will simply add the right bodies (bacteria, fungus, virus, yeast, prion) to help deal with the unwanted or over expressed invaders. We are a super organism after all.

No processed foods here. I make my own foods, including my own sauerkraut, yogurt, and other fermented veggies.
Avoid GMOs as much as possible -- one reason I support labeling laws.
No rBHTs.
Can't manage 50 kinds of veggies a day, but eat a fair number.
Eat various fruits, but with caution because I don't tolerate them well.
Consistent sleep schedule, check.
Stress levels getting better.
Fresh air when I can....
What's a disinfectant?

[Todzo]

I agree that unhealthy microbiome is a likely candidate for the obesity crisis.
Some day in the future, rather than pump people full of antibiotics we will simply add the right bodies (bacteria, fungus, virus, yeast, prion) to help deal with the unwanted or over expressed invaders. We are a super organism after all.

No processed foods here. I make my own foods, including my own sauerkraut, yogurt, and other fermented veggies.

You are way ahead of me here. I am just beginning to learn how to do all of this.

What's a disinfectant?

During our infamous “modern times” it was considered good practice to kill as many microbial life forms as possible by using caustic substances (disinfectants). They actually considered all bacteria, fungus, yeast, prion, and virus harmful!
Now we are learning to treat our little friends with the respect and appreciation they deserve!

[123.Shawn T.W.]

I Haven't flown in over ten years ... And don't plan to until the TSA is gone, and I can carry my thermos of water from home on, along with my gun!

But ... Here is my question ... Is business class just Economy with more room?

If so it seems like the solution ... I never could see paying for first class ... But is business that much more than economy?

[RandyJ]

I Haven't flown in over ten years ... And don't plan to until the TSA is gone, and I can carry my thermos of water from home on, along with my gun!

But ... Here is my question ... Is business class just Economy with more room?

If so it seems like the solution ... I never could see paying for first class ... But is business that much more than economy?

I fly mostly in Business class on British Airways. The seat becomes a bed that goes completely flat, you can stretch out and you're in your own area partitioned off from your neighbor, etc. The service is more like First, better food and wines. But a lot more space in general.

Photos etc here: http://www.britishairways.com/travel/cw ... blic/en_gb