Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

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Jeffster
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Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by Jeffster » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:45 am

I've been coping with insomnia for a while, and as a follow up to thread I had going on that topic, I'd like to post some ResScan data and ask for help in seeing if it shows why I wake up.

I do lights out around 11 PM, and I get some wake ups during the night but usually fall back to sleep quickly. Then I'll get what I call a "big wake up" about 3 to 5 hours into sleeping from which it is difficult to fall back to sleep. Sometimes I can get two of these in a night. I'm usually comfortably on my right side when i awake, and am having a dream. The dream is usually pleasant enough, although I may be getting aroused by some action like trying to peddle a bicycle.

Here's the link to my previous thread on my insomnia and my "big wake up" problem:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65119&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

For these charts, I think I'm getting the big wake up around 2:10:20, then it took me 30 seconds of waking up to realize I should turn off the S9 to get a good marker of where I was at in data recording. So I've gone back 5 minutes in one minute Flow periods to show the patterns, and then skipped back 5 minutes for one more snapshot.

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So, does any of this data show why I may be getting a big wake up, and perhaps indicate what I might need to do to sleep better and reduce these wake ups?
Last edited by Jeffster on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Lizistired
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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data

Post by Lizistired » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:04 am

It could have been the leak that woke you, but it looks minor.
What time do the bars close in your area? 2 AM?
I get alot of traffic shortly after 3 am (bars close here) that often wakes me, as does work traffic in the AM, and a dumpster truck at 4 AM.

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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data

Post by Cuda » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:05 am

WOW!!! I would sell my children for those charts!!!! Eight and half ours of perfect sleep! WOW!!!

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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data

Post by Pugsy » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:16 am

Cuda wrote:WOW!!! I would sell my children for those charts!!!! Eight and half ours of perfect sleep! WOW!!!
Give yourself 3 to 6 months to get things sorted out and I bet you will see reports like this too.

To OP here. I don't see anything on the report itself that I could blame for wakeups. Not to say something isn't there but it sure doesn't stick out like a sore thumb which we often can see easily.

Any possibility of external forces at work? Pets? Noisey neighbor? Have to pee? Anything unusual?

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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by Jeffster » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:27 am

Thanns for the quick repies.

@Lizistired - no noises like that. It's a recurring pattern I've lived with for years, but it seems to have gotten worse in the last 9 months.

@Cuda - good luck getting your better results. That's part of the irony to me, I'll get good APAP data, but too many of these wake ups can really hurt me after a while.

@ Pugsy - no external things to blame it on, rather it is a persistent problem of my own sleep patterns.

So those Flow patterns are not telling us anything about why I would wake up? It looks like my inhale and exhale get shallow, and then the exhale goes deep. I was hoping this might tell us something. Is it just typical breathing for REM or dream state?

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Cuda
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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by Cuda » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:49 am

Yeah, I was not saying having your data would be the answer to everything. I am working now on the right mask combination and machine settings as I just got started. The other part of my treatment I started researching today was more natural ways of treating insomnia, I figure it might go away after a while on the machine but then I found your original post!!!! It was everything was looking for regarding natural supplements and I have to thank you for that! I have been able to get good charts before but never good charts over 3-4 hours. Thanks to you I have a good idea what my next step would be. I never knew any of that info on serotonin and the others. Again, thank you very much.

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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by Jeffster » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:53 am

Cuda wrote:Yeah, I was not saying having your data would be the answer to everything. I am working now on the right mask combination and machine settings as I just got started. The other part of my treatment I started researching today was more natural ways of treating insomnia, I figure it might go away after a while on the machine but then I found your original post!!!! It was everything was looking for regarding natural supplements and I have to thank you for that! I have been able to get good charts before but never good charts over 3-4 hours. Thanks to you I have a good idea what my next step would be. I never knew any of that info on serotonin and the others. Again, thank you very much.
You are most welcome Cuda. I hope it all helps, and I would add, be careful. I think there is advice to that extent in my original post referenced here, and I think that is important to understand.

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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by Cuda » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:33 pm

Yes, I saw those warnings. I am going to do more research but start with just 100MG of the 5HTP before bedtime and maybe under 1MG melatonin. I ordered my stuff but will be researching like mad before they arrive. I have had insomnia and OSA my entire life (even as a child I snored and had insomnia issues). The doc seems to think the OSA might have caused the insomnia and will correct itself over time. I think he may have a point as I already have a more "healthy" tired feeling as of late. I am on Ambien to get use to the machine, small dose and want off it as soon as possible, it took 6 months of hell to get off all the damn meds in the first place. Would like to go natural and really work on sleep hygiene, outdoor exercise etc with the hopes some day I do not require anything (except the CPAP of course). Your post was a great beginners guide if you will. I have already stopped smoking a while back and eat healthy, drink water, no caffeine and have a normal BMI (with CPAP just starting to work I want to start working out too). So treating my insomnia the right way and getting this CPAP down I have high hopes. Getting better every day and I thank all you guys and gals on here for the help. Sorry, I did not mean to hijack your thread. I have no answers regarding your chart but I know waking up in the middle of the night is a problem for me because I just dont fall asleep once I wake so I can see why you want to solve that issue. You also mentioned trazadone which I had forgotten about. I have taken everything you can imagine and when I needed something to get started on CPAP I chose Ambien as it works, but it has a short life in the body and the side effects are almost not worth it. Maybe traz is the answer, it sticks with you longer, may not have the side effect Ambien has that bothers me so.

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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by Pugsy » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:38 pm

Jeffster wrote:So those Flow patterns are not telling us anything about why I would wake up? It looks like my inhale and exhale get shallow, and then the exhale goes deep. I was hoping this might tell us something. Is it just typical breathing for REM or dream state?
I honestly don't know. A sleep tech using EEG and wave form data could tell more.

I think that we OSA sufferers tend to try to hope that the machine fixes all... magic wand sort of. It's function is to keep the airway open. There are any number of sleep disorders and the machine only is designed to fix one.
People without OSA have different forms of insomnia too. While we hope that the wakeups and insomnia were sleep apnea related.. often the fact it that there are other sleep disorder issues contributing to the whole picture.

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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by robysue » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:42 pm

As Pugsy points out, a tech with an EEG and the wave form could tell more.

The one thing that I see is that it looks to me like you've got some real flow limitations going on in those wave forms that you've posted for the time between 2:00 and 2:10. There's also evidence of that in the big overview graph. So it could be that right before your big wake up, your breathing is particularly ragged for quite a bit of time. But not ragged enough for OAs and Hs to be scored because (a) you are breathing during this whole time (so no OAs) and (b) the flow limitations gradually increase so slowly that no Hs are scored: On the S9, an H requires something like a 30% to 50% drop in airflow compared to a baseline that's based on a moving average of the last several minutes of breathing if I recall correctly. If the air flow is slowly, but surely deteriorating, it can get pretty limited without an H being scored. But if it gets limited enough, it's reasonable to assume that you will wind up arousing yourself to get the breathing back to normal.

So--how do the wave form data in this 10 minute period compare to a 10 minute period where you're pretty sure you were asleep and NOT right before or right after you woke up with the "big one"? The comparison between this period and a period where you didn't have a big wake might be illuminating.

As for what to do about that big wake? If it's been a pattern of your sleep for a very long time pre-cpap, it may be that you're waking up (and not getting back to sleep) out of habit. Yes, I know how "silly" that sounds since you don't WANT to wake up and you DO want to get back to sleep. But if you got into an unconscious habit of sleeping like this, it may be difficult to break yourself of the habit.

One thing for you to consider. Have you ever heard of "Second Sleep"? Once upon a time---before Edison invented the electric light bulb and we all started staying up till whenever and then trying to sleep straight through the night until it's wake up time, it was common for people to go to bed relatively early (after all, it was dark shortly after sunset), sleep for several hours, wake up in the middle of the night for an hour or two, and then return to sleep until wake up time near dawn. And what did folks do during that long wake up in the middle of the night? Sex, for one thing. Or prayers if you were a monk or a nun. (Matins was the daily prayer service that took place at around 2:00 AM; attendance at matins was mandatory for those living in religious communities.)

If you google Second Sleep, here are some links that pop up:

"Sleep We Have Lost" Commentary

That's not insomnia, that's the natural sleep pattern ...

Broken Sleep May Be Natural Sleep

Of course, the big issue here is that YOUR big wake up IS bothering you---perhaps because you do have to live in the 21st century and this pattern of First Sleep, Second Sleep just doesn't work with the rest of your life. So I'll go out on a limb and make the following suggestion: You seem to be in bed (with the S9 running) from a bit after 11:00pm until a bit after 7:30am on the night you posted about. I believe this is typical for you, given what I've read elsewhere in your posts. That's a time in bed of about 8 hours. But how long do you feel like you're actually sleeping on a given night? Six hours? Seven? It just might be the case that you don't actually need eight solid hours of uninterrupted sleep to function on a daily basis. Maybe you only need the amount of sleep you are actually getting. Let's say you're getting only about 7 hours of sleep each night. One way to try to break that habit of the big wake up might be to simply stay up until it's 12:30 and give yourself a seven hour Time In Bed window. By delaying bedtime until 12:30, but keeping wake up time at 7:30, that would help your body consolidate its sleep cycles and may allow it to eliminate the big wake simply because it can only get the seven hours of sleep it needs by NOT falling back into the pre-industrial pattern of having a big wake in the middle of the night.

So it may be worth trying going to bed later, but getting up at the same time for the next several weeks. See if that eliminates the big wake or not.

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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by Mike6977 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Cuda wrote:I am on Ambien to get use to the machine, small dose and want off it as soon as possible.

I chose Ambien as it works, but it has a short life in the body and the side effects are almost not worth it.
I take ambient too, and now suffer exactly the same wake-ups you describe.

Even off ambien for a night, I wake up after a few hours.

For both of us, the faster we quit this mother's little helper, the better, me thinks.

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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by avi123 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:27 pm

As I understand it, you can't tell by the S9 Autoset graphs when you're asleep or awake or arising. But you can tell when you shut off or started the machine. It seems to me that all your graphs were taken while you were awake b/c they don't look like my.

I usually get up twice during 7 hours sleep. If I go to sleep at 11:30 I fall asleep within 15 min. If I can't fall asleep within 30 min (which rarely happens now) I take 10 mg of Zolpidem (generic Ambien). My next wake- up is between 3 and 5 to go urinate. After 6:30 I wake up once more . If I can't fall back to sleep within 30 min after getting up, I then remove the mask and sleep without CPAP until the next wake- up. An Internal Medicine MD told me to read or watch TV while awake. And I mostly fall back asleep on it.

I was given Flomax tablets (0.4 mg per night) to test if I wake b/c the need to urinate (Prostate problems, etc.) or b/c an OSA event. But I am postponing taking it.

I often check my respiration cycle shape to see if I drift from OSA to CSAS or CompSAS (periodic), like this, in CPAP mode, and next to an obstructuve event:


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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by Jeffster » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:57 pm

@Pugsy, thanks for the additional thoughts. I was hoping there was something in those Flow shapes that would suggest something for me to try to reduce or eliminate the wake ups, something even other than the APAP therapy.

@robysue, yes, I have read a bit about segmented sleep, learning of it from an older thread here. I think that is a strong possibility of what my condition is. I'll have to give that later lights out idea some consideration; I'm guessing I'd need to do it for several days to weeks to see any possible improved results? I actually went to bed an hour later last, but because I was at some friends' house for a birthday party, so not a good test, a bit too wound up from it. I did fall off eventually, but then I still had my big wake up happen as well.
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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by deltadave » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:18 am

robysue wrote:One thing for you to consider. Have you ever heard of "Second Sleep"? Once upon a time---before Edison invented the electric light bulb and we all started staying up till whenever and then trying to sleep straight through the night until it's wake up time, it was common for people to go to bed relatively early (after all, it was dark shortly after sunset), sleep for several hours, wake up in the middle of the night for an hour or two, and then return to sleep until wake up time near dawn.
This "biphasic" sleep pattern reached its zenith in "The Land of the Midnight Sun", where it stayed light (and then consequently dark) for 6 months at a time.

"Laplanders" would work like crazy on the first Monday in September ("Labor Day") and then sleep till the middle of December. Then they'd get up for 2 weeks and party like it was 1999. This became known as The 12 Days of Christmas (with the preceding day needed to shop at WalMart, and the day after to bring all that junk back for a refund, and get into fights with the girl at the Service Desk (hence "Boxing Day").

They would then come out of their burrows on February 2nd. Contrary to popular belief, it was not "the shadow" that was the important concept here: It was rather the intense sunlight that would create the shadow. Since the sunlight would reduce the cortisol levels and force them to "get up" and "shovel out the reindeer stall" which was now about 6 feet deep in Deer Dung ("a meter"), they thought it would be a much better idea to go back to sleep for 40 Days ("Lent") and then kick off the Summer with a BBQ on the Fourth of July ("Memorial Day").
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Re: Help Analyze My ResScan Flow Data For Wake Ups

Post by avi123 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:27 am

Starting CPAP 9 months ago helped me overcome my Fragmented Sleep. While being tested about it at the Neurology Center in my town, I was told that there are many folks who have Fragmented Sleep (no REMs) through out their lives and there is nothing to cure it. It's idiopathic. Those folks just got adapted to it. I was lucky in my case that the CPAP worked even if I do wake once or twice a night. See my post above.

Check about Fragmented Sleep:

http://www.netwellness.com/question.cfm/76969.htm

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