UARS and what to do?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
albill
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Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:42 pm

UARS and what to do?

Post by albill » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:11 pm

Hello, I just joined the forum.

I am 38 years old this month. Until last Fall, I had had no sleep issues in my entire life. I could easily fall asleep whenever I wanted and wake up refreshed. I went overseas (Egypt) and caught some virus there or shortly thereafter. This made me sick for three months, first with flu-like symptoms, and then hypertension and tachycardia. Eventually, I recovered but, during the illness, I developed a sleep problem.

I have snored moderately for years but the only noticeable effect was on my wife. I weighed 235 last year but between changing habits and losing 20 pounds while sick, I've been down to 195 - 200 since my illness. (I am 5' 10" tall.) My BMI during my last study was 28.1.

Starting during my illness, whenever I fall asleep, I get muscle jerks. This is similar to when one's leg kicks when falling asleep. The first sign of my sleep issues were a difficultly falling asleep as I would get these starts EVERY time I tried to sleep, over and over again, up to ten or more in an hour. They can be in a shoulder, my hand, a leg, my chest, etc. Each time, they wake me up as I am falling asleep. After an hour or more of this, I would just wind up dozing and not going to sleep, as if my body had given up on sleeping. This later seems to have developed into a generalized issue in falling asleep (after months or it).

They put me on Klonopin (Clonazepam) and a waiting list of two months to see a local board certified sleep doctor who is also a certified neurologist. In the meantime, my old doctor (who I have since left) sent me to two sleep studies at a local, as it turns out, kind of quack sleep clinic trying to sell machines. They diagnosed me as having a mild apnea (5.1 events an hour, with 5 being the threshold of apnea).

Later, when I saw the neurologist/sleep doctor, she sent me to a local hospital that she works with for a seizure montage, because the jerks could be neurological. They were much more competent in the measuring though it took months to get in for the study.

The final diagnosis by the neurologist/sleep doctor was there was no evidence of seizure activity in my brain. What she did find was highly fragmented sleep.

Details from doctor's report:
My sleep architecture:
* Delay RED sleep onset latency
* Sleep fragmentation: 47.6 awakenings or arousals per hour. "Many of these events were not associated with any 'scorable' causative even, thus are classified as 'spontaneous arousals'".
* Total sleep time: 349.5 minutes

My Respiratory data:
The patient demonstrated
* mild sleep apnea
* light snoring and occasional snorts
* The apnea/hypopnea indes was: 0.5
* There were a significant number of respiratory events (respiratory event related arousals) consistent with upper airway resistance, raising the RDI to 30.6
* O2 saturation nadir 91%
* Time in hypoxia below 89% saturation was 0%.

Cardiac was WNL (within normal limits)
No PLMs noted.
Patient slept in prone position most of night.

Diagnosis:
Axis A:
obstructive sleep apnea (UARS) - 327.23
sleep stage dysfunction - 780.56

Axis B:
Polysomnogram 95810
My RDI (combined) was 30.6. I had 0 apnea events, 3 hypopnea events, and 175 RERA events.
In 349.5 minutes of total sleep time, I had 264 arousals, 13 awakenings, and 0 REM awakenings.

So, she diagnosed me as having UARS, which I had never heard of before. Explaining that while I didn't stop breathing, my body was reacting to restricted airflow by arousing or awakening me, increasing heart rate, and causing my sleep to constantly fragment.

Subjectively, it can take me an hour or two to fall asleep. As I fall asleep, I get these jerks, which wake me. Some nights are worse than others. If I don't fall asleep during the first two hours, I generally just doze all night. On a "good" night, if I do fall asleep, I generally awake around 3:30 to 4:00 AM (having gone into bed around 11:15 PM) and then sleep lightly, on and off, until I get up around 8:00 to 8:30 AM.

She said that CPAP would be a possible solution but she doesn't recommend that to insomniacs normally. Instead, she sent me to a special dentist, Dr. Alvarez of Fremont, CA, who made a mouth piece that repositions my tongue forward. I've had that for a bit over a month now. There may be *mild* improvement but not much. I'm getting a new night time mouth piece this week with a flexible bar that will move my jaw forward while sleeping.

I'm not sure what to do for UARS if this mouth piece doesn't help. Part of the problem is that my sleep doctor only sees sleep patients once a week (the rest is here neurology practice). She appears to be highly regarded (my other doctors spoke well of here spontaneously and they were in different practices) but I always have to wait 1 to 2 months for appointments. Before the sleep study, she seemed convinced that my sleep issues were anxiety based (despite the jerks, which she still cannot explain) but she quit mentioning that once she got the final sleep study back.

If anyone has any advice, suggestions, or knows of good sleep doctors for things like UARS near the Bay Area (San Francisco), I would appreciate it. I'm kind of at my wits end and I start graduate school again for a doctorate in a month and I really feel apprehensive about doing it with this sleep disorder. This whole thing has been going on for about seven months now.

Right now, I take 8 mg of Rozerem and .25 mg of Klonopin on alternating nights because my doctor doesn't want me to take anything nightly for fear of addiction or dependency. They both help (on good days) but neither is the kind of drug that will knock you out at those doses and I want healthy sleep.

Al

jnk
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Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by jnk » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:18 pm

Welcome to the forum, Al.

You may want to check out the statements by ozij, rested gal, and -SWS, in particular, related to UARS, at this thread from a few months back. Just click the link below to get there:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40126&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p351121

The links given by -SWS in his post will take you to further discussions on UARS. Rested Gal's comments on other problems causing spontaneous arousals is very interesting there.

The main point I would make is that PAP therapy can benefit many with UARS, when done right. Maybe straight pressure, maybe bilevel, but there are people here to help you make PAP therapy work for you.

I'm no doc, but my understanding is that the hypnic jerks you describe (or sleep starts, or hypnagogic jerks, or myoclonic jerks, or whatever they are called these days) can be made worse by sleep deprivation. So it may be that if you get to the root of the deeper sleep problem, that aspect may go away on its own.

For Bay Area and UARS, I would think this is the place:

http://stanfordhospital.org/clinicsmedS ... rders.html

And depending on how deep you want to go, here is some light reading from some of the people doing research over there:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=2579981

jeff
Last edited by jnk on Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Muse-Inc
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Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by Muse-Inc » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:52 pm

Welcome aboard! Great folks, great info here.

I hope you find info that helps you make good decisions going forward. Might search for posts by Doc Falcon, he's written a book on UARS which he experienced.

If I were in your shoes, I'd try taking 300 mgms of magnesium citrate (do NOT take the oxide form which is only a laxative). Magnesium is used to relax smooth muscle tissue and might help reduce (relax) the strength of those muscle jerks. I used to get them...not as frequently or as severe as yours...and starting magnesium for another reason saw them disappear. It's estimated that 70% of Americans are deficient as it's no longer in our water.
ResMed S9 range 9.8-17, RespCare Hybrid FFM
Never, never, never, never say never.

albill
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Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:42 pm

Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by albill » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:58 pm

Thanks for the quick responses and suggestions. I will take a look at the threads and give the magnesium a try.

The weird thing is that if I even lay down, when sleep deprived, for a 20 minute nap, I will get the same jerks but when I mention to my sleep doctor (or my normal doctor), I only get the same mention that people who are sleep deprived get these worse. I've counted six of them in 35 minutes before giving up on a nap before.

It is weird that I could have been one of the lucky people with no subjective sleep problems a year ago and it all came on suddenly.

On reading around here, I've also asked my main doctor for a referal to a decent ENT specialist. I've had a somewhat congested nose for years and years and it is common for my to be stuffy or to have a nostril mostly blocked when I go to sleep. (This isn't new.) I bet that doesn't help either. I'd like some validation from an ENT doctor that my tongue might actually be the culprit.

I'm hoping to avoid CPAP or BIPAP (and I read somewhere that people have had better luck with BIPAP and UARS) but I'm getting to the point where I'll do anything. I know others have been there.

jnk
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Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by jnk » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:16 pm

Nasal irrigation can help.

An ENT evaluation can't hurt, and in your case, may be particularly important.

All of us here hoped to avoid PAP therapy at some point. But once we experienced the benefits of it, we are glad we didn't avoid it.

The great thing about PAP therapy is that it is cheap, relatively speaking; easy; and patient-tweakable for effectiveness. It only happens when you are in bed, so it doesn't affect life during the day negatively the way surgery and medical therapies can. The machines are quiet and small these days, and the masks have come a long way in the last few years. I have a friend who went on PAP therapy two weeks ago, and he already says it is as if he isn't even wearing a mask now--he can't feel it, it's like it isn't even there.

I know it is hard to take someone else's word for that. But PAP therapy is the gold-standard treatment for a reason. It works. You won't know till you give it the full shot. If it doesn't work for you, THEN you can try something else. But there are people here and in other forums who can tell you stories about how much time and energy and money they wasted before they ended up coming right back to PAP therapy. And they now love it--or at least how they feel using it.

Just my 2 cents. And I wish you the best.

jeff

albill
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Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by albill » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:30 pm

jnk wrote:Nasal irrigation can help.
What are the best solutions for that?
jnk wrote: The great thing about PAP therapy is that it is cheap, relatively speaking; easy; and patient-tweakable for effectiveness. It only happens when you are in bed, so it doesn't affect life during the day negatively the way surgery and medical therapies can. The machines are quiet and small these days, and the masks have come a long way in the last few years. I have a friend who went on PAP therapy two weeks ago, and he already says it is as if he isn't even wearing a mask now--he can't feel it, it's like it isn't even there.

I know it is hard to take someone else's word for that. But PAP therapy is the gold-standard treatment for a reason. It works. You won't know till you give it the full shot. If it doesn't work for you, THEN you can try something else. But there are people here and in other forums who can tell you stories about how much time and energy and money they wasted before they ended up coming right back to PAP therapy. And they now love it--or at least how they feel using it.
It is good to hear that it is getting better. My wife is particularly concerned with having a machine in the room.

My sleep doctor suggested the oral appliance because she doesn't recommend PAP machines for insomniacs if it can be avoided.

I thought that I had read that people with UARS had pretty mixed results with PAP versus people with full sleep apnea.

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Muse-Inc
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Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by Muse-Inc » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:07 pm

albill wrote:
jnk wrote:Nasal irrigation can help.
What are the best solutions for that?
Nasal congestion is a common problem for xPAP users; there are quite a few threads on congestion, stuffy nose...try searching. Lotta suggestions.
  • Sprays:
    - saline spray: use as often as needed
    - nasal steroid spray: usually once/twice day (examples Nasonex, Flonase)
    - nasal antihistamine spray: one of the azelastin sprays (examples Astelin, Astepro)
  • Nasal Irrigation (usually once/twice a day using a saline solution)
    - neti pot
    - Grossan irrigator http://www.hydromed.com (NO AFFLIATION) I just use it and the solution pack (add to water)
    - over the counter kits
ResMed S9 range 9.8-17, RespCare Hybrid FFM
Never, never, never, never say never.

jnk
Posts: 5784
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:03 pm

Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by jnk » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:17 pm

albill wrote:What are the best solutions for that?
The Neilmed squeeze bottle is the bomb for nasal irrigation:

http://www.neilmed.com/usa/products.php
albill wrote:It is good to hear that it is getting better. My wife is particularly concerned with having a machine in the room.
Get a late-model ResMed and it is below 24 dB.
albill wrote:My sleep doctor suggested the oral appliance because she doesn't recommend PAP machines for insomniacs if it can be avoided.
An oral appliance is for helping you breathe. If breathing is the issue, PAP can help. That being said, I can't argue with her sentiment. CPAP is not a treatment for insomnia per se. But if we're talking SDB (sleep-disordered breathing), not just insomnia, don't let the stigma associated with the idea of using a machine affect your choices about something as important as getting restorative sleep.
albill wrote:I thought that I had read that people with UARS had pretty mixed results with PAP versus people with full sleep apnea.
UARS is still a controversial concept. You have to define what it is to define what you want to do about it. It might take a UARS-experienced sleep doc familiar with looking at raw data and diagnosing UARS to see your sleep-study data and make the call whether you are a good candidate for responding to PAP therapy.

My personal feeling as a fellow patient (but not a UARS patient) is that I might not recommend using an auto-titrating machine in auto-titrating mode for treating UARS. Either straight CPAP mode or bilevel mode is the way to go, I would think. One theory is that the sleep of UARS patients is very disturbed by changes in the upper airway, so I would guess that an auto-titrating machine used in auto-titrating mode might add to the destruction of sleep architecture.

Dr. Krakow may not be as mainstream as he thinks he is, but he has pioneered using relatively high bilevel pressures (and often higher-than-usual pressure support, the difference between the breathe-in pressure and the breathe-out pressure) and apparently found success for some UARS patients:

http://sleepdynamictherapy.com/category ... -syndrome/

I can say from experience that there is something soothing about being rocked to sleep by the alternating pressures of bilevel as you drift off to sleep. Maybe it reminds us of hearing our mother's lungs breathe just above us before we were born. I don't know. But it seems to have a relaxing, calming effect. It is probably cheaper than cognitive behavioral therapy. Which would be my choice number 2, right after bilevel.

If there is any way you can get in the door over there at Stanford, you are likely to get some great help from some amazing people, in my opinion, whether the root of your problem is UARS or not.

jeff

jnk
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Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by jnk » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:54 pm

Some info from an ENT surgeon about UARS, according to his experiences . . .
"Upper airway resistance syndrome was first described by researchers at Stanford University in 1993. . . . In general, UARS is treated like sleep apnea. . . . CPAP, or Continuous Positive Airway Pressure, is actually the gold standard treatment for sleep apnea. In the original article that described UARS, CPAP was used successfully in many of these patients."
http://www.sleepguide.com/profiles/blog ... resistance

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roster
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Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by roster » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:43 pm

albill wrote:.......... she sent me to a special dentist, Dr. Alvarez of Fremont, CA, who made a mouth piece that repositions my tongue forward. I've had that for a bit over a month now. There may be *mild* improvement but not much. I'm getting a new night time mouth piece this week with a flexible bar that will move my jaw forward while sleeping.

........
albill wrote:I just had an oral device made by Dr. Michael Alvarez in Fremont. I was referred to him by my sleep doctor.
http://www.drmichaelalvarez.com/
That (Elastic Mandibular Advancement) looks like a compact device. It is adjustable like the Thornton Adjustable Positioner (TAP).

How much did it cost? What was the upfront examination like to determine the probability of success?

Thanks and best of luck,
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

albill
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Re: UARS and what to do?

Post by albill » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:54 pm

rooster wrote:That (Elastic Mandibular Advancement) looks like a compact device. It is adjustable like the Thornton Adjustable Positioner (TAP).

How much did it cost? What was the upfront examination like to determine the probability of success?
I haven't received the second one yet. I was supposed to last week but there was a delay at the manufacturer and I will probably get it this Thursday.

The initial device, which is two pieces for my upper and lower parts of my mouth and a nub in the top to guide my tongue forward, was $600. I had to pay up front and they billed my insurance (Anthem Blue Cross PPO). Whatever the insurance pays, they will send to me as a check but the dentist is paid up front.

I don't know what the new device will cost though I suspect it will be similar.

As to the examination, Dr. Alvarez looked at my soft pallet, my teeth, my tongue, etc. and that was it. It wasn't the most confidence building. My sleep doctor, Dr. Cooper in Berkeley, is considered to be good though she only works with sleep patients three days a month so the wait time on appointments is often more than a month and a half. She sent me to Dr. Alvarez and had worked with him before.

Frankly, I don't know if this new device will make a difference or not but it seems to be worth trying before going to the point of getting a CPAP machine. I'm also trying to get in at the Stanford Sleep Disorders Clinic to get another opinion about my sleep issues since I was diagnosed as having UARS and Stanford was where that syndrome was discovered.

Personally, I'm at my wit's end with all of this, having had no sleep issues whatsoever before I had a three month illness last winter and now I suffer from heavily fragmented sleep with no apneas and only a couple of hypopneas.