Sleep Debt and Weight Gain--Dr Weil, MD

[socknitster]

Dr. Weil says CPAP therapy is the gold standard for apnea. Is he wrong about that? Since you are here, I doubt you believe that.

Extrapolation is common in science. You can't test everything all the time. But you can make educated guesses.

I have a degree in biology and my husband is a Ph.D. in chemistry and head of R and D for a very important manufaturer of mass spectrometors and gas chromatagraphs.

I have worked extensively in lab situations at Purdue University.

Do I know the scientific method? What are your credentials?

I'm not even responding to you any more. You have a problem with Weil--that is your opinion.

I don't see what the big freaking deal is--this study only UNDERLINES what most of us have already CONCLUDED about our own experience with apnea, myslef included. That we GAINED WEIGHT BECAUSE OF THE APNEA, not the other way around. I was thin and athletic when the symptoms started. My family complained about how thin I was. Then came the sleep probs and depression symptoms and exhaustion. THen I packed on 70 lbs. Now that I'm on xpap, I'm losing it pretty easily.

That is the message I brought to our group. Not that Dr. Weill and his credentials are up for debate. Drop it. Or take your last word, whatever.

But no one here is interested in hit and run snipers (Guests who never register, but stir up a lot of shit) who never identify themselves as stable personalities that we can relate to.

jen

[Guest]

Go Jen!!!!!

[Susanm]

My first batch of soap is curing. I made some newbie mistakes but I just rebatched it and it turned out fine. I'm making another batch this weekend. Where do you buy your raw ingredients? I found quite a bit locally but plan on ordering from SoapersChoice.com in Chicago because it is close and I've read rave reviews of them on soapers forums. Very cheap and their shipping cost is excellent (but I'm only 2 hours away).

Jen

Ah, Jen, you're lucky you're so close to SoapersChoice, they have a lot of nice stuff, and pretty good prices as well. I haven't been able to find anyplace here in NC closer than Raleigh that carries soapmaking stuff. For my lye, I go to Lowes and buy the Roebic brand. Most of my oils I can locate at Walmart or a grocery store - coconut oil, castor oil, safflower and corn oils. I buy my shea butter and cocoa butter at http://www.kangarooblue.com/. My pigments and most of my essential oils came from http://www.brambleberry.com/. They also have really neat molds and soap stamps. And my fav place for fragrance oils (and a few essential oils is http://www.saveonscents.com/. All three ship fast, and the customer service has been great. Brambleberry in particular will slip in samples sometimes, so I comb through the packing peanuts very carefully!

My trusty lye calculator is http://www.soapcalc.com/calc/soapcalcWP.asp as it lets me calculate formulas based on weight or percentages.

Have fun with your chemistry, I know I've gotten a lot of pleasure out of mine! Thinking about experimenting with solid perfumes next. I think they'd sell.

Susan M

[socknitster]

are you boiling your own ash to get the NaOH for saponification/transesterification?

No, that is the way the pioneers did it and while I like to be authentic, it is far safer to use chemical lye. It has known values and while it is a strong agent, it is predictable. There isn't any way to quantify the saponification value of wood ash made lye. You could make dangerously alkaline soap or you could make a big batch of lotion instead of soap or something in between. I prefer reliabiltiy.

I don't know of anyone who still does it the pioneer way, but if they have figured out a way to standardize it, I would love to hear all about their methods. I'm fascinated with the entire topic. It is basic chemistry, but there are so many options and avenues to explore from cold process to hot process to transparent to liquid soaps and then there is rebatching and adding scents and essential oils for their properties. Its about as endless as my other fave hobby--knitting. Also a craft with an endless learning curve.

Jen

[socknitster]

My first batch of soap is curing. I made some newbie mistakes but I just rebatched it and it turned out fine. I'm making another batch this weekend. Where do you buy your raw ingredients? I found quite a bit locally but plan on ordering from SoapersChoice.com in Chicago because it is close and I've read rave reviews of them on soapers forums. Very cheap and their shipping cost is excellent (but I'm only 2 hours away).

Jen

Ah, Jen, you're lucky you're so close to SoapersChoice, they have a lot of nice stuff, and pretty good prices as well. I haven't been able to find anyplace here in NC closer than Raleigh that carries soapmaking stuff. For my lye, I go to Lowes and buy the Roebic brand. Most of my oils I can locate at Walmart or a grocery store - coconut oil, castor oil, safflower and corn oils. I buy my shea butter and cocoa butter at http://www.kangarooblue.com/. My pigments and most of my essential oils came from http://www.brambleberry.com/. They also have really neat molds and soap stamps. And my fav place for fragrance oils (and a few essential oils is http://www.saveonscents.com/. All three ship fast, and the customer service has been great. Brambleberry in particular will slip in samples sometimes, so I comb through the packing peanuts very carefully!

My trusty lye calculator is http://www.soapcalc.com/calc/soapcalcWP.asp as it lets me calculate formulas based on weight or percentages.

Have fun with your chemistry, I know I've gotten a lot of pleasure out of mine! Thinking about experimenting with solid perfumes next. I think they'd sell.

Susan M

[roncron]

Jen, thank you for posting the article on sleep debt & weight gain. It is interesting and useful. I've often speculated about the connection but never bothered to research it. The article makes a lot of sense.

[socknitster]

Jen, thank you for posting the article on sleep debt & weight gain. It is interesting and useful. I've often speculated about the connection but never bothered to research it. The article makes a lot of sense.

You are welcome, roncron! As I said, it only validated what I have felt to be true since my diagnosis. I wouldn't be fat and dieting now if I had been diagnosed when I was thin. And I wouldn't have lost so many years to brain fog either.

jen

[goose]

I've bookmarked all the soap links here - interesting stuff. I've done most "hippie" crafts but never gotten into soaps -- I may have to check it out and give it a try -- perhaps make some $$$ at local shows. (I do tie dye most of the time -- the old fashioned way -- don't paint the dye, I do real tying and dying......makes for everything being more or less random - which is the way it should be I've had a product for years called, "Dr. Goose's Holistic Sleep Shirts.....Gee. I wonder if I could drum up some business here (They're overpriced, but.......). Could be a fit -- I'll have to think on it!!!!! ). I've always been interested in soap but never made the attempt.
thanks for all the info sources......
I don't have the benefit of a live in chemist though.....I'm on my own


cheers
goose

[Guest]

Just don't make soap the way they do in the movie "Fight Club". That'd be a bit gross!

[kavanaugh1950]

JEN, THANKS FOR THE ARTICLE. DR WEIL IS A FASINATING PERSON AND WELL EDUCATED. I REALLY BELIEVE IN HOLISTIC MEDICINE EVEN THOUGH I AM IN THE CONVENTIONAL MEDICAL FIELD. I ALSO ENJOY READING ABOUT YOUR TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS WITH SOAP MAKING. PAT

[socknitster]

I've bookmarked all the soap links here - interesting stuff. I've done most "hippie" crafts but never gotten into soaps -- I may have to check it out and give it a try -- perhaps make some $$$ at local shows. (I do tie dye most of the time -- the old fashioned way -- don't paint the dye, I do real tying and dying......makes for everything being more or less random - which is the way it should be I've had a product for years called, "Dr. Goose's Holistic Sleep Shirts.....Gee. I wonder if I could drum up some business here (They're overpriced, but.......). Could be a fit -- I'll have to think on it!!!!! ). I've always been interested in soap but never made the attempt.
thanks for all the info sources......
I don't have the benefit of a live in chemist though.....I'm on my own


cheers
goose

Goose, you warm this granola-girl's heart! I highly recommend the book The Soapmaker's Companion by Susan Miller Cavitch. It is about $13 at amazon. I got it from the library along with every other soap book they had and this one and her other book are the ones I decided to purchase.

I also highly recommend looking online at:
http://www.millersoap.com
http://www.thesage.com
www,diannassundries.com

These are great for basic soapmaking info and instructions and recipes.

I'm having so much fun reading about this and cannot WAIT to make another batch! I think homemade soaps would sell well with tie dye. I would be interested in seeing some of your shirts. I'll pm you my email address.

I've dabbled in tie-dye myself. I have all the supplies, just no time to haul all that stuff out with a 4 year old in the house asking me a zillion questions and making tons of messes.

jen

[Susanm]

Just be sure to run any recipe you find in a book through a good lye calculator first. Surprisingly enough, out of all the soap books I've read, only a few recipes came out right on the calculator. Some of that soap would have burned the skin VERY badly, and others would have never hardened at all. I use the books for inspiration (as someone without a sense of smell, some of the fragrance blends would never have occurred to me), but I make my own recipes. And then I doublecheck, lol.

Susan M

[Guest]

Dr. Weil says CPAP therapy is the gold standard for apnea. Is he wrong about that? Since you are here, I doubt you believe that.

Extrapolation is common in science. You can't test everything all the time. But you can make educated guesses.

I have a degree in biology and my husband is a Ph.D. in chemistry and head of R and D for a very important manufaturer of mass spectrometors and gas chromatagraphs.

I have worked extensively in lab situations at Purdue University.

Do I know the scientific method? What are your credentials?

I'm not even responding to you any more. You have a problem with Weil--that is your opinion.

I don't see what the big freaking deal is--this study only UNDERLINES what most of us have already CONCLUDED about our own experience with apnea, myslef included. That we GAINED WEIGHT BECAUSE OF THE APNEA, not the other way around. I was thin and athletic when the symptoms started. My family complained about how thin I was. Then came the sleep probs and depression symptoms and exhaustion. THen I packed on 70 lbs. Now that I'm on xpap, I'm losing it pretty easily.

That is the message I brought to our group. Not that Dr. Weill and his credentials are up for debate. Drop it. Or take your last word, whatever.

But no one here is interested in hit and run snipers (Guests who never register, but stir up a lot of shit) who never identify themselves as stable personalities that we can relate to.

jen

_________________

Hi Jen, the reason I have a problem with this article is this: Children who suffer from OSA have markedly lower growth hormone levels. As we grow up and our pituitary glands decline in function, our GH levels go down naturally. that right there is a big difference in OSA in adults and children.

As for the apnea (or whatever is causign your sleep debt to increase) causing weight gain, well yeah we can argue that until the cows come home. People are in control of their situations enough to know they have gained 10 lbs and now their snoring has gotten worse. They may be the 5th person, the one who does not have any clinically significant apnea but snores. 10 more lbs and there's a good chance they're going to have full blown apnea.

Where does the apnea cause the weight gain? After you have apnea maybe, before that... no way.

Not that it matters, but I've done a lot of NMR, mass spec, and gas chromatography. I too have a BS in biology and am also a RPSGT (and soon to be) CSCS. Lifestyle changes and body manipulation are my passion, and I disagree with Andrew Weil on this one.

[sharon1965]

As for the apnea (or whatever is causign your sleep debt to increase) causing weight gain, well yeah we can argue that until the cows come home. People are in control of their situations enough to know they have gained 10 lbs and now their snoring has gotten worse. They may be the 5th person, the one who does not have any clinically significant apnea but snores. 10 more lbs and there's a good chance they're going to have full blown apnea.

Where does the apnea cause the weight gain? After you have apnea maybe, before that... no way.

"Guest"--whoever you are,
call me dense but i don't even know what you're trying to say here...what is your point?

[SleepGuy]

As for the apnea (or whatever is causign your sleep debt to increase) causing weight gain, well yeah we can argue that until the cows come home. People are in control of their situations enough to know they have gained 10 lbs and now their snoring has gotten worse. They may be the 5th person, the one who does not have any clinically significant apnea but snores. 10 more lbs and there's a good chance they're going to have full blown apnea.

Where does the apnea cause the weight gain? After you have apnea maybe, before that... no way.

I'm just a dumb lawyer but did manage to copy part of a very interesting article discussing how low blood oxygen levels during the night result in diabetes. I suspect that the insulin dynamic discussed in the article may lend support to the argument that apnea causes weight gain in certain people because it interferes with the normal digestive function. Panic hormones, like cortizol, released during apnea are also linked to wieght gain.

Unfortunately, the original article has since been taken off the Net....

Here's an excerpt:

"Sleep debt strongly affects glucose utilization as well as circadian cycles of thyrotropin, cortisol, growth hormone, and other physiological variables. Sleep debt alone is reported to result in impaired glucose effectiveness similar to that found in non-insulin-dependent diabetics. Severe OSA significantly influences plasma insulin and glycemia and may increase the risk of diabetes independently of obesity."

"Insulin resistance is found in both obese and non-obese OSA patients. Blood pressure and fasting insulin correlate closely with both BMI and the severity of OSA. Thus, both the sleep debt and the sympathetic activation that accompany OSA may speed the deterioration of glucose tolerance. Insulin resistance and hyperinsulinemia lead to further sympathetic activation, thus completing the circle of obesity, diabetes, hypertension, and the related metabolic abnormalities."

"Clearly, it is important to manage all the risk factors for diabetes and hypertension. Patients with diabetes, obesity, and hypertension have about a 70% chance of having significant OSA. Thus,OSA must be included in the differential diagnosis for hypertension. Treatment of OSA in the obese, diabetics, and hypertensives may improve insulin responsiveness (32%), reduce blood pressure, and normalize the abnormal growth hormone cycle – and may possibly improve the impaired lipid metabolism seen in OSA. Patients with hypertension and diabetes should be asked specific questions that can reveal undiagnosed OSA. A positive answer to the following two questions provides a 90% predictability for identifying a sleep disorder:

• Do you snore?
• Have you ever been told that you stop breathing during sleep?

"Physicians who ask these questions can expect an eightfold increase in OSA patients in their office. After treatment of OSA, they can also expect improvement in the management of both hypertension and diabetes."

Recent articles in Chest and Cardio Thoracic Journals state that after the onset of insulin resistance, little can be done to reverse it.

Truth be told, modern medicine knows relatively little about the effects of OSA. I'm just glad for a good doctor who sent me home with an overnight oxymeter several years ago!