Last post/Subject on this username

[neversleeps]

SAG,

I prefer to draw my own conclusions regarding the content and merit of another member's post. While you've made it clear you deleted posts because you determined, "A cancer in the organism needs to be excised," it is simply not your decision to make.

[WearyOne]

I'm glad we live in a country that's free for people to say what they want. The problem is, some people don't give a hoot about how what they say may affect someone else. THAT's the problem. Common courtesy is thrown out the window in order to say what's on their mind. They blow off any criticism of what they've said or how they've said it as either, "I have a right to say what I want and if you don't like it, too bad," or, "Go somewhere else if you don't like what I say," or "Grow up," or "Get a thicker skin." A lot of people won't get helped with that attitude. Hmmm, some major egos at play for some, I believe.

SAG, you have helped me more than I can say, so I hope you'll hang around. But, if it gets to be more trouble that it's worth to you, I know a nice little board that originates in my town--come on over!

Pam

[StillAnotherGuest]

I sat back and watched you RIP frequenseeker over and over again in that AdaptSV thread.

Yeah, fair point about the frequie thing. And frankly, I had that thread in mind when earlier I said here

I hope the reason that people make decisions is based on their ultimate goal or benefit, and are willing to demonstrate that commitment.

The stuff she was advocating might have benefit in a tiny percentage of patients, assuming it was being done with proper monitoring. If done with "overlap" patients (COPD patients who are CO2 retainers) there's a real good chance that a tragedy would occur. Despite numerous warnings about improper use of this, the door to unsupervised and arbitrary use was left open (and still is, despite our "agreement"). If I have to jump up and down and yell and scream so that people will at least think about 5 times before they do it, then in my mind, I've done all I can, I've accomplished my goal.

Back to the issue, I don't doubt your time, commitment and sincerity to the cause. Your contributions are significant. But c'mon, you know the posts and posters I'm talking about. And no, it's not necessary to "attack back". If you're as slick as you think you are, then dealing with those guys on a more civil level shouldn't be a big deal.

who died and made you forumadmin?

I would like to think that they, I, and everyone else here shares the same goals. Which brings us to where the "cause" is really going. Are you really interested in trying to help people? Does "attacking back" really help anybody? Do the mean-spirited comments add to the credilibity of the forum? Do you really want to take the forum to the next level? Because the comments, the language, the pictures, only serve to bring it down.

LOL With that attitude you won't have to leave, you'll probably be barred from the forum eventually.

I'm glad you were smiling when you said that.

But hey, whatever. The planet will turn whether SAG's on it or not.

I prefer to draw my own conclusions regarding the content and merit of another member's post. While you've made it clear you deleted posts because you determined, "A cancer in the organism needs to be excised," it is simply not your decision to make.

Yeah, maybe. The censorship thing. But am I going to stand by idly and see people hurt, undeservedly so? No, that has nothing to do with censorship. I would suggest that if mutual respect and civility goes out the window, then you can't hide under the censorship umbrella.

But if the insults, foul language and demeaning comments cease, then all this is academic anyway. Would that be so bad?
SAG

[Babette]

LMMO - I am so sorry I accused you of being rude to akccpapguy. I never saw the posts by Snoredog that you were actually referring to. I know I apologized to you personally, but I want to publicly apologize to the forum here, because I contributed to a very uncivil discussion, and for that I'm very sorry. I am now going to go up and edit my post to you.

Darin, thank you very much for clarifying what happened with your employer. I was worried that because you stated you worked for the military, that it was part of the whole military crackdown on internet posting. I think your decision and your employer's concern was thoughtful and well reasoned. We SHALL miss you here. Carry on with our support and blessings. Lock and Load!

To the rest of you, I apologize for my incivility and short temper. If it makes any of you who were chapped by my post feel any better - I got my annual evaluation Friday, and my boss dinged me for my poor interpersonal communication skills. I think my tendency to get pissed off and apologize later isn't the best lifestyle choice. I apologize to all, and will endeavor to do better in the future.

Barbara

[neversleeps]

I prefer to draw my own conclusions regarding the content and merit of another member's post. While you've made it clear you deleted posts because you determined, "A cancer in the organism needs to be excised," it is simply not your decision to make.

Yeah, maybe. The censorship thing.

Not just "maybe".

The issue is your belief that you have the self-appointed authority to edit what the rest of us are permitted to read. You have taken it upon yourself to delete posts at your discretion and claim to be doing so for the good of the forum. We are all perfectly capable of forming our own opinions as to whether or not a post is worth reading and/or responding to. We don't need you to make that decision for us. In fact, you do not have the right to make that decision for us. At the risk of stating the obvious, the purpose of the "Delete Spam" button is, well, to delete spam. It is not labeled the "Delete Posts SAG Doesn't Like" button, or the "Delete Posts That Offend SAG's Sensibilities" button. There are currently 16,597 registered users at cpaptalk. As a member of this forum, I'd personally like to have the opportunity to read what they have to say.

[blarg]

The issue is your belief that you have the self-appointed authority to edit what the rest of us are permitted to read.

I've made my position on this issue clear on several occasions, but I'll add that position to this thread for posterity's sake.

Den's concerned about "where does it stop?" The answer is wherever we want it to. Several here have the technical ability to create forums, including myself. If it is ever truly out of control, then hop over to a different forum. The admins here have made it clear they are largely on the "no censorship" side of this debate, so I HIGHLY doubt that they're going to be thought police tomorrow.

And I really don't think it's as dramatic as neversleeps does. Quite frankly, in any town of 16,597 people, there are bound to be a few people that you wouldn't trust to babysit your children. Now, the issue in a town is a physical safety one, which is not true here, but we have police officers in society for a reason.

I find it interesting that suddenly, in this thread, Snoredog has managed to argue his point eloquently, without calling SAG stupid, without saying that every question he's ever had is stupid, and without putting pictures of a middle finger up. I find it truly interesting that as horrible as some of you think censorship is, at least in this thread, it's helped at least one poster to be civil. SAG didn't go in and delete every single post that Snoredog made, just a single, over the top attack. And now, suddenly, Snoredog is not attacking people. Could be conincidence, but I personally don't think so.

Again, personally, I think the only way we'll have a free exchange of ideas on this forum is for everyone to know that consequences exist for uncivil behavior. Otherwise, all those that don't think it's worth their time to get offended at what's going on at an internet forum won't be around. Seen CollegeGirl around much recently?

Neversleeps, what about all those people out of the 16,597 that choose not to post here anymore because they've been attacked and didn't feel it was worth it to come fight it out? Don't you want to hear what they have to say?

And no, I don't want a perfect "let's all hold hands and sing together" type of place. I just want people to abstain from acting like 4 year olds. They can hate me or disagree with me all they want, we just don't need to be calling each other names and insinuating that the person we disagree with has brain damage.

(Edit: Interesting title for the topic: "Addition by subtraction." I just thought I'd note that subtracting negative values does result in addition. )

[Vader]

I prefer to draw my own conclusions regarding the content and merit of another member's post. While you've made it clear you deleted posts because you determined, "A cancer in the organism needs to be excised," it is simply not your decision to make.

Yeah, maybe. The censorship thing.

Not just "maybe".

The issue is your belief that you have the self-appointed authority to edit what the rest of us are permitted to read. You have taken it upon yourself to delete posts at your discretion and claim to be doing so for the good of the forum. We are all perfectly capable of forming our own opinions as to whether or not a post is worth reading and/or responding to. We don't need you to make that decision for us. In fact, you do not have the right to make that decision for us. At the risk of stating the obvious, the purpose of the "Delete Spam" button is, well, to delete spam. It is not labeled the "Delete Posts SAG Doesn't Like" button, or the "Delete Posts That Offend SAG's Sensibilities" button. There are currently 16,597 registered users at cpaptalk. As a member of this forum, I'd personally like to have the opportunity to read what they have to say.

I totally agree, Neversleeps. I come to this forum to read what folks have to say, and I'll draw my own conclusions, WITHOUT censorship, or someone telling me what's okay for me to read. What's next? Burning books???

[neversleeps]

Neversleeps, what about all those people out of the 16,597 that choose not to post here anymore because they've been attacked and didn't feel it was worth it to come fight it out? Don't you want to hear what they have to say?

Absolutely! That is my point, exactly. If someone wants to post, I want to hear what they have to say. But, if someone else should come along and delete that person's post, I'd never have the opportunity to hear it.

Voluntarily choosing not to post here and having your post involuntarily removed are two entirely different things. We can't do anything about those who choose not to post, but we can work to ensure those who choose to post will not have their words deleted by another member of the forum simply because they dislike the content. According to the Registration Agreement Terms at cpaptalk, the only people who have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time are the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum. The exception to that, of course, is the deletion of spam, which we have all been empowered to do. I suppose it is a small miracle that we haven't run into an abuse of this power before now.

We don't have to like everything we read, but that doesn't give us the right to censor it. I realize this is a timeless argument, but it will forever remain a valid one. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
From The Friends of Voltaire (1906) written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the pseudonym S.G. Tallentyre

I totally agree, Neversleeps. I come to this forum to read what folks have to say, and I'll draw my own conclusions, WITHOUT censorship, or someone telling me what's okay for me to read. What's next? Burning books???

Nah, probably not. Although, the new Harry Potter book is coming out soon. That's been a catalyst for a few book-burning bonfires in the past couple years.....

[Linda3032]

Come on Blarg, "lets all hold hands and sing".

[jules]

As a forum member who read the first of the deleted posts, I can understand how someone connected with a DME or sleep lab would want to remove the post. I found it nasty and offensive. I can also understand how someone with one of those backgrounds would be disturbed after reading it. I am not a medical professional or have a medical background except as a patient. Unfortunately have seen worse attacks online.

I am not by any means saying I approved of the post’s removal by an “ordinary” forum member. As much as I did read between the lines SAG’s post earlier it wasn’t until after I mentioned my understanding of the “delete spam” option and repercussions, that he then admitted that he had done it. I would have assumed that the poster would have realized how badly the post reflected upon himself and that he deleted it himself. Linda suggested earlier a silent apology, however, this is not the case. Assuming that SAG is really an "ordinary" forum member, the posts should be reinstated and if the poster wants to delete them after that, so be it. Yes I do know who SAG is for anyone concerned.

Most of us do live in the US and have “freedom of speech”. This (and I am sure neversleeps will find the right quote for us) does not allow us to call people offensive names or yell fire in a crowded theatre. With those freedoms, we accept some responsibility ourselves to act in a socially acceptable manner or face the consequences.

Now for the consequences -----

[blarg]

But, if someone else should come along and delete that person's post, I'd never have the opportunity to hear it.

I want to make it clear that I don't think deleting the post was the best action here. I think that a moderator would have come in and warned the offending poster. That does not involve editing or deleting anything. However, that is currently not an option on this forum, and as such I'm glad that SAG at least drew attention to this issue.

We can't do anything about those who choose not to post, but we can work to ensure those who choose to post will not have their words deleted by another member of the forum simply because they dislike the content.

Again, I don't advocate random deletion. But actually, we CAN do something about those that choose not to post. We can create a welcoming environment. We do that by policing our own actions first, and then, if necessary, by helping others to police their own actions.

The exception to that, of course, is the deletion of spam, which we have all been empowered to do. I suppose it is a small miracle that we haven't run into an abuse of this power before now.

Well, that's because whenever someone deletes something that isn't spam, it usually gets reinstated in about a day, and that person's delete spam button disappears. So, if SAG's delete spam button remains, then what that means is that the forum admins reviewed the post he marked as spam, and decided it should be removed as well. He can't just moderate this forum without implicit admin approval. Period.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Again, I don't think censorship was the best option here. I don't think posts should just disappear. So cool, let's have police that let EVERYONE express themselves. Again, we CAN do something about people that choose not to post. We just need to be less like the wild west so that all the passerby strolling down the main drag don't get shot during a duel. PM CollegeGirl and ask her why she's been absent recently.

[Snoredog]

I sat back and watched you RIP frequenseeker over and over again in that AdaptSV thread.

Yeah, fair point about the frequie thing. And frankly, I had that thread in mind when earlier I said here

I hope the reason that people make decisions is based on their ultimate goal or benefit, and are willing to demonstrate that commitment.

The stuff she was advocating might have benefit in a tiny percentage of patients, assuming it was being done with proper monitoring. If done with "overlap" patients (COPD patients who are CO2 retainers) there's a real good chance that a tragedy would occur. Despite numerous warnings about improper use of this, the door to unsupervised and arbitrary use was left open (and still is, despite our "agreement"). If I have to jump up and down and yell and scream so that people will at least think about 5 times before they do it, then in my mind, I've done all I can, I've accomplished my goal.

Back to the issue, I don't doubt your time, commitment and sincerity to the cause. Your contributions are significant. But c'mon, you know the posts and posters I'm talking about. And no, it's not necessary to "attack back". If you're as slick as you think you are, then dealing with those guys on a more civil level shouldn't be a big deal.

who died and made you forumadmin?

I would like to think that they, I, and everyone else here shares the same goals. Which brings us to where the "cause" is really going. Are you really interested in trying to help people? Does "attacking back" really help anybody? Do the mean-spirited comments add to the credilibity of the forum? Do you really want to take the forum to the next level? Because the comments, the language, the pictures, only serve to bring it down.

LOL With that attitude you won't have to leave, you'll probably be barred from the forum eventually.

I'm glad you were smiling when you said that.

But hey, whatever. The planet will turn whether SAG's on it or not.

I prefer to draw my own conclusions regarding the content and merit of another member's post. While you've made it clear you deleted posts because you determined, "A cancer in the organism needs to be excised," it is simply not your decision to make.

Yeah, maybe. The censorship thing. But am I going to stand by idly and see people hurt, undeservedly so? No, that has nothing to do with censorship. I would suggest that if mutual respect and civility goes out the window, then you can't hide under the censorship umbrella.

But if the insults, foul language and demeaning comments cease, then all this is academic anyway. Would that be so bad?
SAG

your logic amazes me ole wize wizard. Frequenseeker makes a post you feel can cause someone physical bodily harm so you leave those posts and decide it is better to just publically humiliate her for contributing to the forum. Not just once but several times as I read it.

So now I come along and explain to akcpapguy some of the DME common "practices" we read about here nearly every week and why they were probably not better received in his departing post, you suddenly take it upon yourself to delete those posts as being nasty.

Tell me SAG, what was so "nasty" in them posts? Or was it you deleted those posts because lmmo is one of your newbie sleep techs and you just did it to show them you are the self-proclaimed big wig here?

Either that or my posts offended you as a "DME" so they got deleted. Can't have anyone complaining here about the practices of DME's ripping people off afterall, I bet you sell equipment too.

But your logic on which posts to delete sounds a bit hypocritical to me, but that is only my opinion.

I guess you will delete this post just as you have been abusing that delete button on the others.

But guess what, those deleted posts are not really deleted, they are simply moved from the public forum to a seperate group like a Deleted Items folder in email, it is up to the forumadmins to actually purge them from the system. I suspect due to laws, they cannot really purge anything on a public forum only remove it from public view.

They can restore them or purge them, that is up to forumadmin I don't care either way, I know you were just protecting one of your own and I commend you for growing some balls to admit it.

[blarg]

I suspect due to laws, they cannot really purge anything on a public forum only remove it from public view.

This isn't a public forum. It's owned by cpap.com, and they can do pretty much anything they want with the content. We're guests here, and our participation is a privelage, not a right.

[StillAnotherGuest]

I guess you will delete this post just as you have been abusing that delete button on the others.

Hmmm, let me think about that for a bit. While I fully intend to follow through on my intentions, this really doesn't qualify as a "hurting other people" kind of post, and I can always invoke the "rubber-glue" rule for my own purposes.

Lemme take a run, I'll get back to you later.
SAG

[Missy]

I have been a member here for over a year. I celebrated my first year anniversary of being a cpaper on May 25, 2007. I have learned so much from reading posts, asking questions, and drawing my own conclusions from many, many posts. I have backed off from posting on here because of some mean spirited replies, and a general lack of respect for others. That doesn't mean I won't read posts and from time to time use the info for my benefit, but, I do refrain from making posts as of late. Don't kill the messenger.