OT - Thanks to Janknitz and DreamStalker (diabetes/diet)

[Janknitz]

Don't forget, too, that there's a difference between burning the fat stored in cells and the dietary fat you consume. Ketosis is about accessing that stored fat. And it's also about not storing more fat. The dietary fat you consume is converted to energy that's immediately available to the body. Dietary fat is not stored in the cells.

When you consume too many carbohydrates, insulin causes the excess blood glucose from the carbohydrates to be stored in your cells as fat. When your blood insulin levels are reduced, the fat stored in your cells can come out and be used by the body.

This is not as simple as calories in, calories out. The hormones affect how each component is metabolized. Excess glucose equal excess insulin which causes excess glucose to be stored as fat in the cells. Dietary fats, OTOH, don't stimulate insulin and don't get stored. They get used immediately or excreted.

Until the glycogen stores are depleted, ingested carbs are in excess and what can't be used immediately will be stored. Essentially saved for a rainy day. It's how our ancestors survived between hunts.

[DreamStalker]

Actually, a person can maintain a state of ketosis regardless of whether the fatty acids are sourced from dietary fat or stored body fat .... so long as insulin is suppressed. As noted previously ... a state of ketosis is defined as a metabolic condition such that the blood ketone level of beta-hydroxybutyrate is greater than 0.5 mmol/L.

[brain_cloud]

Thanks to messrs. jnk, Janknitz, and Dreamstalker--people like these are why I stop by here from time to time. In fact, let's bring it in for a group hug, awesome.

Yes, I had left out of account the >0.5 mmol/L constraint, the keto "adapted" issue, and the stored vs dietary fat issue, and other factors. Although, clearly, the body is able to get to even the stored fat in the absence of ketosis. We just modify the caloric intake of my hypothetical dude, by decreasing daily intake to 1600 per day, keep the same macro nutrient ratios, and make no changes to his activity levels. He remains the adorable couch potato he always was, both to avoid any excercise effects on ketone production, and also to make him a more relatable and empathetic figure. Well, he's got to be consuming like well above 100 grams of carbs per day. I know, let's push these carbs into him at a constant rate, 24/7, via an IV. I double dog dare him to get into ketosis under these conditions. Yet he will be losing stored fat over time.

Jeez, I use so many words just to bring up the obvious point that it is possible to lose stored fat with a non-ketogenic diet. It's just very difficult.

My own experiment with ketosis just ended yesterday. I did 6 days of <25g of carbs per day (and I'm a big dude). The test strips arrived on the third day, and were already showing at about the 1.0 mmol/L level and moved up to the 4.0 range over the next couple days. Ha!, I brought some strips to work and had a few of my colleagues pee on them so I could verify negative results. I often instigate shit like that at work. You know, For Science.

Anyway, unfortunately I caught a nasty cold from my daughter on day 5, and on day 6 decided to bail out because being sick was interfering with being able to notice what the nutritional transition feels like. So I went out and bought a cake and some french bread. And some donuts. And some candy bars.

I'll do it up right (for at least a month) when I'm back to normal.

[Janknitz]

Dreamstalker is correct. Most of us want to access our stored fat to lose weight, but the real key for the OP is to use the ketones to improve brain function. Even using exogenous ketones will help.

Very nice article here in plain English: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ev ... in-ketones

[DreamStalker]

Thanks to messrs. jnk, Janknitz, and Dreamstalker--people like these are why I stop by here from time to time. In fact, let's bring it in for a group hug, awesome.

Yes, I had left out of account the >0.5 mmol/L constraint, the keto "adapted" issue, and the stored vs dietary fat issue, and other factors. Although, clearly, the body is able to get to even the stored fat in the absence of ketosis. We just modify the caloric intake of my hypothetical dude, by decreasing daily intake to 1600 per day, keep the same macro nutrient ratios, and make no changes to his activity levels. He remains the adorable couch potato he always was, both to avoid any excercise effects on ketone production, and also to make him a more relatable and empathetic figure. Well, he's got to be consuming like well above 100 grams of carbs per day. I know, let's push these carbs into him at a constant rate, 24/7, via an IV. I double dog dare him to get into ketosis under these conditions. Yet he will be losing stored fat over time.

Jeez, I use so many words just to bring up the obvious point that it is possible to lose stored fat with a non-ketogenic diet. It's just very difficult.

My own experiment with ketosis just ended yesterday. I did 6 days of <25g of carbs per day (and I'm a big dude). The test strips arrived on the third day, and were already showing at about the 1.0 mmol/L level and moved up to the 4.0 range over the next couple days. Ha!, I brought some strips to work and had a few of my colleagues pee on them so I could verify negative results. I often instigate shit like that at work. You know, For Science.

Anyway, unfortunately I caught a nasty cold from my daughter on day 5, and on day 6 decided to bail out because being sick was interfering with being able to notice what the nutritional transition feels like. So I went out and bought a cake and some french bread. And some donuts. And some candy bars.

I'll do it up right (for at least a month) when I'm back to normal.

Uhhh ... how could you have left out the potato chips? Your brain could not have possibly been using ketones if you forgot to buy the potato chips. Better luck next time

[Janknitz]

LOL, Brain Cloud.

Hope you feel better soon. Colds are hard on a low carb diet, except that I almost NEVER get one anymore Before wrangling in my diet, it was typical for me to have 6 -10 nasty colds a year. Over the course of the last few years, I think I've had only 1 or 2. I push the chicken broth (homemade), miss the noodles terribly (sometimes I eat Shirataki noodles which are a poor stand in), avoid all OTC cold remedies (I am a big believer in letting my immune system do its job without interference) and get over a cold in a day or two instead of weeks as before.

People lose weight all the time on very low calorie diets. Maybe they are in ketosis and maybe not. Certainly they are in a calorie deficit, so yes, you can lose weight that way. But that's not the end of the story. https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/ ... explained/

It's all about the metabolism.

[jnk...]

Mere caloric restriction appears, for some, to modify resting metabolic rate and hormonal interactions in a way that can, over time, negate the practical viability of the simple calories-in-calories-out model. The body can adjust so that it can maintain weight with fewer calories by becoming more "efficient" in how it processes them. That is why, for example, some people can consume many, many more calories than they expend and still never gain weight. The body lets them pass without grabbing them. The body is much more complicated than being a simple one-size-fits-all calorie-storage bucket.

So, yes, there are many ways to come at an obesity problem, without invoking tired statements about one's inability to violate the laws of thermodynamics. The question is never as simple as "how do you take in fewer calories." The question is, How can a person eat healthy and be healthy 10 or 20 years down the line? And simple daily caloric restriction by sheer force of will-power has proved to be a complete failure, by that measure, for the majority of the population who were "prescribed" that now-scientifically-discredited approach.

At this point, it appears that the only thing mainstream medical science has to offer with any consistent track record for anything even close to success is bariatric surgery. Personally I consider that a more extreme approach than personal experimentation with ketosis, since a ketogenic diet should be totally reversible, comparatively speaking, unless I inadvertently do something nutritionally to myself that permanently damages an organ worse than the damage that can be done by an invasive surgery.

I don't mind hugs, but the group thing kinda weirds me out. Just sayin'.

[jnk...]

. . . the real key for the OP is to use the ketones to improve brain function. . . .

I hadn't realized I was that far gone.

[Janknitz]

. . . the real key for the OP is to use the ketones to improve brain function. . . .

I hadn't realized I was that far gone.

Aahhh! Sorry.

I was thinking of the person who is hoping to accelerate recovery from apnea induced brain fog. Clearly I need to up MY ketones. I'm just about to eat for the first time since dinner last night. A weenie little fast.

[jnk...]

I knew what you meant, Janknitz, but I couldn't pass that one up.

I do think I may need some professional intervention to keep me from being a danger to myself and others, in view of the experiment I conducted the other night, though.

After about 10 days off carbs, I decided to pull out the glucose meter on a fast day and then, get this, eat two donuts, by themselves, just to see what would happen as I checked my BG every 15 minutes.

Well, after having spent the preceding days never seeing my BG above 110, I saw it that evening go from around 90 to just below 180 in 45 minutes and then stay in the 150 to 175 range for the next three hours!

As someone relatively newly diagnosed, that was a powerful object lesson for me, seeing it with my own eyes, as a motivating factor to avoid that kind of thing in the future.

I'm not sure why I have to do odd things like that instead of being like normal people. My wife just shook her head at me. I think a big part of my purpose in life is to keep her entertained.

[Janknitz]

OMG But it was probably worse because your body wasn't quite geared up for it.

I'll tell you about my 2 doughnut experiment. We did a family car trip up through the Pacific Northwest--Northern California to Seattle with stops at Crater Lake (Awesome!) Mt. St. Helena (stunning!), the Willamette Valley (meh) and Portland (great city, terrible traffic). My kids especially wanted to go to Portland for the VooDoo doughnuts.

Since it was a vacation I decided to indulge. Two yummy doughnuts (I think a dozen was cheaper than each of us getting our own doughnuts). Besides feeling terrible and I was too afraid to check my blood sugar, I broke out in pettichiae (bleeding under the skin) on my forearms which grew and grew until I was a bloody mess (ecchymosis). I've known for a while now that grains (especially rice for some reason) cause this kind (but not severity) of bleeding on my arms, but WOW! My big worry is that if it's doing that under my skin, WHAT is happening in my gut???

Not doing that again EVER. Nope! Doughnuts are not worth it.

[lilly747]

Actually, a person can maintain a state of ketosis regardless of whether the fatty acids are sourced from dietary fat or stored body fat .... so long as insulin is suppressed. As noted previously ... a state of ketosis is defined as a metabolic condition such that the blood ketone level of beta-hydroxybutyrate is greater than 0.5 mmol/L.

Thank you DS, I got that meter you posted a link for and checked my ketones: they were 1.5 with macro of fat 83%, protein 13%, and carbs 4%.

What I don't get is why my fasting blood sugar was/has been around 97 with ketones of 1.5.

[DreamStalker]

Actually, a person can maintain a state of ketosis regardless of whether the fatty acids are sourced from dietary fat or stored body fat .... so long as insulin is suppressed. As noted previously ... a state of ketosis is defined as a metabolic condition such that the blood ketone level of beta-hydroxybutyrate is greater than 0.5 mmol/L.

Thank you DS, I got that meter you posted a link for and checked my ketones: they were 1.5 with macro of fat 83%, protein 13%, and carbs 4%.

What I don't get is why my fasting blood sugar was/has been around 97 with ketones of 1.5.

Could be that you are consuming hidden carbs/alcohol sugars? …. I've read some labels on organic deli meat packages that actually contain as much as 15 to 20 grams of sugars per serving. However, assuming that your “fasting blood sugar” is taken in the morning soon after waking, then that would be a likey reason for high 90's glucose readings. When we first wake in the morning, our body gives us a dose of cortisol (a fight or flight hormone produced in the adrenal gland) which signals the liver to raise our blood glucose through gluconeogenesis for a quick energy boost and also to raise our sodium to potassium ratio to prepare our vascular system for the orthostatic change in blood pressure as we get ready to stand up.

So you can try waiting an hour or two after you wake before taking your glucose measurement or better yet try reducing your cortisol levels. One way to do this is to take a pinch of sea salt when you first wake and before you get out of bed (just keep a small container of sea salt on your night stand) to help reduce the amount of cortisol needed to raise your sodium to potassium ratio. People in ketosis should already be adding extra sodium to their diet anyway. You could also try yogic breathing exercises like Dr. Weil's 4-7-8 breath exercise. And after the salt and the breath exercise you can turn to your sleep partner and have an awsome session of sex as that too is a good way to reduce cortisol levels … and when you're all done, you should be cortisol free and ready to take your glucose measurement.

[lilly747]

Could be that you are consuming hidden carbs/alcohol sugars? …. I've read some labels on organic deli meat packages that actually contain as much as 15 to 20 grams of sugars per serving. However, assuming that your “fasting blood sugar” is taken in the morning soon after waking, then that would be a likey reason for high 90's glucose readings. When we first wake in the morning, our body gives us a dose of cortisol (a fight or flight hormone produced in the adrenal gland) which signals the liver to raise our blood glucose through gluconeogenesis for a quick energy boost and also to raise our sodium to potassium ratio to prepare our vascular system for the orthostatic change in blood pressure as we get ready to stand up.

So you can try waiting an hour or two after you wake before taking your glucose measurement or better yet try reducing your cortisol levels. One way to do this is to take a pinch of sea salt when you first wake and before you get out of bed (just keep a small container of sea salt on your night stand) to help reduce the amount of cortisol needed to raise your sodium to potassium ratio. People in ketosis should already be adding extra sodium to their diet anyway. You could also try yogic breathing exercises like Dr. Weil's 4-7-8 breath exercise. And after the salt and the breath exercise you can turn to your sleep partner and have an awsome session of sex as that too is a good way to reduce cortisol levels … and when you're all done, you should be cortisol free and ready to take your glucose measurement.

No to the hidden sugar...no pkg food. Yes to BS draw right out of bed. So that leaves cortisol. Considering I had high cortisol problems a year ago, stress, I would say it's the cortisol.

[DreamStalker]

... So that leaves cortisol. Considering I had high cortisol problems a year ago, stress, I would say it's the cortisol.

One other possibility is that you are severely insulin resistant. You can also try adding an exercise program to your lifestyle though you don't want to over-do it while in ketosis either. Try a high intensity exercise approach where you give it your all out effort for just 10 to 15 minutes ... 1 to 2 minutes peddle to the metal effort followed by 30 to 60 seconds rest in between for a period of 10 to 15 minutes total.

My suggestion would be resistance/weight training (yes, even for women ... you will not end up looking like Arnold the Terminator unless that is your genetic expression -- highly unlikely) and do the exercises in slow motion but with maximal effort. For example, do 6 to 9 repetitions of a body squat exercise in super slow motion for 1 to 2 minutes of total duration -- where one rep = 5 seconds to squat down and 5 seconds to stand up ... but never lock out your knees when upright ... then 5 down, 5 up, and so on until 1 to 2 minutes have elapsed. Then take 30 to 60 seconds to catch your breath and do the next exercise ... like push ups or pull ups. If you're unable to do a formal push up or pull up, not despair, there are many ways to modify these exercises so that anybody can do them no matter your physical fitness or unfitness level -- just do some YouTube video searches. Use resistance bands, home weights, or get a gym membership .... there is no excuse for doing 10 to 15 minutes of exercise once every week or so.

For the principles behind this suggestion, Google "Dr. Doug McGuff's Body by Science" ... he has plenty of video and blog resources available so that you don't have to buy his book unless you're like me and just want to learn all the physiology and biochemistry behind the approach. There is another way to get started if resistance training simply evokes thoughts of fear and horror ... you can do Tabata training style stationary bike sprints for 10 to 15 minutes. But eventually, the Body by Science approach is the safest, most time-efficient. and effective way to optimize the physical fitness part of hormonal regulation as it only needs to be done for 10 to 15 minutes once every 7 to 10 days ... perfect for those who hate to exercise or just have better things to enjoy their time with or for folks who spend a lot of time in ketosis.

For elevated cortisol, find ways to deal with stress, like yoga, meditation, visualization, massage therapy, acupuncture, water tank flotation therapy, sex, whatever you can find to de-stress ... or you can even try a more advanced technique like the Wim Hof Method to learn to control your autonomic nervous system.