When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

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Pugsy
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When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Pugsy » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:13 pm

Many of you know that I am currently using the new Respironics DreamWear nasal cradle cushion mask.
I was downloading my data the other day and I got a chance to see a really good example of why those 95/90% numbers sometimes don't tell the entire story and sometimes look at lot worse than what they really are.

Remember 95 (ResMed) & 90 (Respironics) % numbers just mean we were at OR BELOW that number for 95/90 % of the night. This applies to leak as well as pressure numbers (when using auto adjusting pressures).
Often we forget the "or below" part of the definition and think this is where we were at for 95/90 % of the night.

Here is my report from the other night. Big leak ( in 2 segments) totaling for roughly 60 minutes out of nearly 8 hours of sleep.
I slept through this leak. I don't think it was mouth breathing because mouth wasn't dry at all and usually if I mouth breathe even a little I get dry mouth. I vaguely recall having to pull the back strap down with the DreamWear mask...so I think this was likely mask movement due to back strap sliding way up. It hasn't happened all that often but in the 3 weeks I have used this mask it has happened on occasion.

My point here is to point out the 95% leak number...big whopping 48 L/min and remember this is a ResMed machine so that's all excess leak and not total leak which would include the vent rate.
If I were looking at only the data on the LCD screen...I would still get the Mr Smiley face for leak control because I was only in big leak 13% of the night. Mr Frowny face doesn't show up until we spend 30% or more of the night in big leak. And on the LCD screen I would see 48 L/min which on the surface could be really scary and knee jerk reaction could be that the entire night was in the toilet due to big leak.

Actually the bulk of the night the leaks were really quite minimal and well below large leak territory.
This is where the "or below" part of the definition becomes real important. This is why I tell people to look at the leak graphs and not rely totally on 95/90% numbers when those numbers are maybe higher than we want them to be. The entire night might not be in the toilet.

This likely was mask movement leak but it very easily could be mouth breathing leak as it shows up the same way. This is why I don't jump on the "get a full face mask" band wagon when someone is using a nasal interface mask and they are saying they don't want a full face mask. This is why I say "look at the graphs" and figure out just how much time was spent in big leak.
Don't rely just on that 95/90% leak number because it sometimes makes things look a lot worse than it really was.
A bad leak number doesn't always mean that someone needs to make drastic changes unless they just want to make those changes.

This particular night...not what I normally see at all and I am not going to change anything based on a fluke night. Doesn't matter if it was mask movement or mouth breathing..it's one hour out of close to 8 hours and normally if I see big leak at all it's less than 3% of the night which is nothing to worry about.

Bear in mind that leaks don't usually wake me up...if they did wake me up a lot then I would do something about them just because they disturb my sleep. If someone gets woke up multiple times a night even with tiny leaks...those leaks need to be worked on because they are disturbing sleep and anything that disturb sleep is unwanted.

So.....especially you newbies....if your leak numbers are a bit ugly...take the time to look at the details because it doesn't necessarily mean that the whole night was in the toilet.

Oh...you Respironics users...don't go by my numbers because your machine reports leak differently. My large leak territory is around 24 L/min...yours is going to vary a bit depending on mask and pressure but up around 75 to 90 L/min is where your large leak territory begins. Also...SH defaults to show the red line for % of time in large leak evaluation at 24 L/min and SH could be reporting more time in large leak than you really have so you may need to make an adjustment to the red line number if you are using Respironics machine.

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Sir NoddinOff
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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Sir NoddinOff » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:46 pm

Thanks Pugsy! It's good you mention this frequently... in my experience I've found the same thing.

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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by pwgphoto » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:12 pm

Along the lines of mask leaks, I have been using my CPAP for just over a week and both my DreamStation machine and the DreamMapper app have always shown no real leak info saying I have had 100% Mask Fit and no leak info, which I no can't be right. All my days show similar to this as far as leak info, only number that ever changes is total disconnects. I just hope when the Sleepy Head software gets updated I can start getting useful info.
Thanks for the help
Paul

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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Pugsy » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:35 pm

pwgphoto wrote:Along the lines of mask leaks, I have been using my CPAP for just over a week and both my DreamStation machine and the DreamMapper app have always shown no real leak info saying I have had 100% Mask Fit and no leak info, which I no can't be right. All my days show similar to this as far as leak info, only number that ever changes is total disconnects. I just hope when the Sleepy Head software gets updated I can start getting useful info.
Actually I can believe that you aren't having large leaks per the machine...it takes a really big leak to get a large leak flag with a Respironics machine. They have considerable leak allowance before it gets to large leak territory.
I never get large leak flags with Respironics but I get them occasionally with ResMed...ResMed's allowance isn't nearly as generous.

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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by PaulPabloPaulo » Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:02 am

Thank-you Pugsy, that was really well explained and very helpful to my understanding of mask leaks.

I will also now review the graph data of leaks rather than getting alarmed by the lcd display. Thanks again you have saved me hours of trawling around the internet πŸ™πŸ˜ŠπŸ˜Š

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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Tec5 » Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:39 am

Pugsy wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:13 pm
How is the average* leak rate calculated (over one sleep session)?

I am evaluating two FFM. While I've not finsihed there is a dramatic change in the "% of time above the leak Rate Threshold", and the calculation for that value is quite clear.
What is less clear is the calculation method for "average" leak rate, and the change in that value is not nearly as dramatic.

BTW, IMO the "smiley faces" display (which I never use) are an extraordinarily crude evaluation technique, bordering on misleading,

* shown on the stats page of OSCAR
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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Deborah K. » Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:40 am

Pugsy, I always look at the large leak percentage in the left column. What do you consider an acceptable number in that column? It seems that up to about 15 would probably not cause a problem that would interfere with one's therapy. Do you think that is about right?
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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Pugsy » Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:54 am

Deborah K. wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:40 am
Pugsy, I always look at the large leak percentage in the left column. What do you consider an acceptable number in that column? It seems that up to about 15 would probably not cause a problem that would interfere with one's therapy. Do you think that is about right?
Well.....my first thing I think about is the question "did those leaks wake me up much...if any".

10% over the red line that causes me to wake up a gazillion times is much more of a problem IMHO than 25% over the red line that I slept right through.

My own personal line in the sand is 20% over red line and THEN at that point I start with my other questions as to just how important that leak might or might not be.

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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Pugsy » Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:57 am

Tec5 wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:39 am
Pugsy wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:13 pm
How is the average* leak rate calculated (over one sleep session)?

Same way any other average is calculated for anything....depends on what kind of average.

http://adventures-in-hosehead-land.blog ... de-to.html

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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Deborah K. » Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:58 am

Thanks!
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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Tec5 » Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:39 pm

Pugsy wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:57 am
Read the citation, but what it doesn't tell me is how many individual observations (of leak rate) are used to calculate this "average".
Just as an example (for resmed) , say a sleep session is exactly two hours long. How many leak rate values are summed? Is it 7200 (which would represent one leak rate value calculation per second) or some other?
Some years ago Robysue, had suggested that each leak rate reading was the average of the prior 1 minute, but I don't know that that is accurate.
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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Pugsy » Sat Nov 04, 2023 4:29 pm

Tec5 wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:39 pm
Pugsy wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:57 am
Read the citation, but what it doesn't tell me is how many individual observations (of leak rate) are used to calculate this "average".
Just as an example (for resmed) , say a sleep session is exactly two hours long. How many leak rate values are summed? Is it 7200 (which would represent one leak rate value calculation per second) or some other?
Some years ago Robysue, had suggested that each leak rate reading was the average of the prior 1 minute, but I don't know that that is accurate.
Well....if YOU want exact then I guess you need to go dig out the ResMed patent and start reading to see if what YOU want is in there.

AND please start your own thread with your question and quit hijacking my thread.

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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Tec5 » Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:29 am

Deborah K. wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:40 am
Pugsy, I always look at the large leak percentage in the left column.
When you say," in the left hand column" Do you mean this (circled in red)?
Image
That number, in this case 26.97, is the percent of time that leaks were detected over the acceptable limit.

Leaks above this acceptable limit, or red line, will degrade the accuracy of the events algorithm.
So in this case 27 % of the sleep session may have been evaluated inaccurately.


.
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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Pugsy » Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:50 am

This is where I first look at just how bad was the leak max...was it maybe 29 L/min which the machine can easily handle or was it maybe 49 L/min which of course could seriously impact therapy negatively.
Just how much time was spent deep in large leak territory? Was it 5 minutes or 50 minutes??
If I don't see very many UA flags during the large leak time then I don't worry too much about things because (for me anyway) history has shown me that the machine does a far job up to around 35 L/min excess leak. I never saw UA flags until excess leaks hit at least 35 L/min.

It's not like things go totally down the toilet if someone hits 25 or 29 L/min...it's a progressive thing...the further you go into large leak territory the iffier things get.

There's a little thing called common sense that people need to use because numbers alone don't always tell the complete story.
Tec5 wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:29 am
Deborah K. wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:40 am
Pugsy, I always look at the large leak percentage in the left column.
When you say," in the left hand column" Do you mean this (circled in red)?
Image
That number, in this case 26.97, is the percent of time that leaks were detected over the acceptable limit.

Leaks above this acceptable limit, or red line, will degrade the accuracy of the events algorithm.
So in this case 27 % of the sleep session may have been evaluated inaccurately.


.

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Re: When 95/90% leak numbers don't tell all the story

Post by Tec5 » Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:43 am

Pugsy wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:50 am
It's not like things go totally down the toilet if someone hits 25 or 29 L/min...it's a progressive thing...the further you go into large leak territory the iffier things get.
I agree with you that it definitely progressive, as the leak value value increases above 25 the algorithms are increasing less reliable. (So suggest the manufacturers)
That is why I said " may have been".
So in this case 27 % of the sleep session may have been evaluated inaccurately.
What is less clear is how the magnitude of a leak impacts the algorithms that are detecting flow rate shapes that might cause distortions in evaluating flow limits. What I'm saying is that it may not be limited to event detection, but also to condition (such as flow limitations) detection.

Best course of action, minimize the time above the red-line.
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