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Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

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Expand view Topic review: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Post by Pugsy on Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:37 am

woolno wrote:I would like to use Sleepyhead, but my new Respironics DreamStation Bipap auto su advanced apparently has a data format that cannot be read by Sleepyhead.

Any ideas? WIll a new version be coming?


Not anytime in the near future. The guy who worked on SleepyHead hasn't worked on it for quite a while and he only works on it when he has the time and feels like it and he has some health issues that are sucking up any little energy he might have.
When he did his most recent version of SH that DreamStation model wasn't available to work up the codes to make it compatible.

I do not know if the most recent version of Encore Pro is compatible with the new DreamStation ASV model.
It's a PITA POS software.
Whomever you got your machine from should be able to use Encore and get you a copy of the report...if Pro is compatible.
If not,....I would imagine there will be a new version of Pro released shortly. The version that is currently out there has been out there for quite a while now.

Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Post by woolno on Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:05 am

I would like to use Sleepyhead, but my new Respironics DreamStation Bipap auto su advanced apparently has a data format that cannot be read by Sleepyhead.

Any ideas? WIll a new version be coming?

Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Post by OboeVet on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:56 am

Pugsy,
Thank you so much for your contributions to this forum, and for your graciousness responding to some of the less pleasant posters. You were a great help to me in 2013 when I started out, and I am sure there are thousands of OSA people sleeping better thanks to your efforts. Blessings & peace,
Don Dodson

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

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Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

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Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

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Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Post by robysue on Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:31 am

At Pugsy's request, I've added this post about PR Snore Data to this thread so it doesn't get "lost"


The question about whether the VS2 data from PR xPAPs is important came up (again) on another forum today. It's been a while since I've seen questions about VS versus VS2 data over here, but since I took the time to write a detailed post over there, I thought I'd post the same thing over here.


VS and VS2 events are the two ways that the PR machines score snoring. We don't know exactly what the difference in criteria used for scoring VS and VS2 snores are on the PR machines, but it turns out we know quite a bit about how the PR machines and Encore (the official software) use the VS and VS2 events.


PR machines and recording snore data
If a PR machine is running in fixed pressure mode, only VS2 data is recorded. In other words, if you are using fixed pressure on a PR machine, the only available snoring data is the VS2 data.  

If a PR machine is running in auto adjust mode, both VS and VS2 data is recorded. But only the VS events cause pressure increases.

Anecdotal evidence is that the criteria that PR machines use to score VS2 data is pretty sensitive, and as a result VS2 data can record a lot of "non snoring" stuff as snores. There are reports on other CPAP forums that people have been able to track excessively high numbers of VS2 snores to sleeping with snoring dogs and the hose rubbing against the sharp edge of a night table or headboard.  Nonetheless, if snoring is a potential problem, then the VS2 data can be important.


SleepyHead and how it uses the PR snore data
SleepyHead does not compute the VS2 index in the same fashion as Encore does. Since Encore is the official software for the PR machines, this is a potential problem with SH data.  Note that JediMark is aware of this, but at the time he was writing SH, we didn't have any ideas at all about how PR machines recorded their snore data, let alone how Encore computed it's "VSI" index.  Heck, we didn't even know there were two forms of snoring data before JediMark started writing SleepyHead.

In looking at lots and lots of his own data, Sleepy Pete made the observation that when there is a whole string of VS2's scored, they are scored in 2 minute intervals.  In other words, the closest together two VS2 events can be is 2 minutes. (See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=93689&p=982257#p982152). That observation underlies how SleepyHead draws the Snore graph for a PR machine.

SleepyHead does two things with the VS2 data: It creates the VS2 Index in the usual way:
    SleepyHead VS2 Index = (Number of VS2 events)/(run time)
SleepyHead also draws a "Snore Graph".  Each VS2 event comes with both a time stamp (when it happened) and a mysterious "number".  You can see these numbers if you click on the Events tab in the left side bar and look at the individual events.  What those numbers numbers actually mean and how they are determined is not known to us because PR is pretty hush, hush about the algorithms its machines use.  However, the common assumption is that the higher the number, the worse the snoring is in some (undetermined) way.  But remember that the VS2's are scored in two minute intervals, and hence  JediMark's Snore Graph is a "step" graph formed by drawing a two minute horizontal line segment for each VS2 snore; the height of the line segment is the number attached to the VS2 snore.

So visually speaking, the more activity there is in the SH Snore graph and the larger the y-axis numbers on the Snore graph, the worse the snoring is.

The VS events have no number attached to them. Hence JediMark had no way of turning the VS data into a visual graph. He reports a SleepyHead VS index computed in the usual way:
    SleepyHead VS Index = (Number of VS events)/(run time)
If the VS event tick marks are overlaid on the pressure graph, it's easy to see that the VS events are the snoring events that lead to increases in pressure when a machine is running in Auto mode.  

If your SleepyHead VS = 0.0 night after night, it's tempting to think that you are not snoring at all.  But it is critically important to remember VS snores are NOT recorded if the machine is running in a fixed pressure mode.  Hence if you use a PR DreamStation PRO, a System One PRO, a DreamStation BiPAP PRO, or a System One BiPAP PRO, your SleepyHead VS = 0.0 regardless of how much snoring you are doing at night.  If you run a PR Auto CPAP or Auto BiPAP in fixed pressure mode, then your SleepyHead VS = 0.0 regardless of how much snoring you are doing.  

In other words, if you are using fixed pressure on a PR machine, the only available snoring data is the VS2 data.  


Encore and how it uses the PR snore data (Part I)
The SleepyHead VS2 snore data shows up as tick marks in the Encore Event table and is used to compute the Encore VSI, although not in the usual way. The SleepyHead VS snore data does NOT show up in the Encore Event table and it is not important in computing the Encore VSI.

When you download data into Encore, you also get wave flow data (flow rate data in SH) for just the last night before the download. The wave flow data is NOT a standard part of the Encore Daily Detailed Data, but by clicking on the appropriate icon, you can look at it and print it off. When looking at an Encore wave flow, the OAs, CAs, Hs, and SleepyHead VS evens show up as tick marks.  But the SleepyHead VS2 events do NOT show up as tick marks on the Encore wave flow.  The Encore wave flow data also includes a pressure curve, and it is clear that the SleepyHead VS events cause PR machines to increase pressure.

If you look at the wave flow for a PR machine running in fixed pressure mode, there will be NO snore tick marks because the SleepyHead VS events are NOT recorded in fixed pressure mode and the SH VS2 events are not overlaid over the wave flow data in Encore.


Encore and how it uses the PR snore data (Part II)
I'm a long time PR BiPAP user. I also have a known snoring problem: On my bad apnea nights, I snore. According to my hubby, most of the time my snores are not really loud, but they are persistent on the nights when I snore.  And there's some anecdotal evidence that on my worst nights, snores may contribute to the number of wakes I experience.  Hence I've spent a fair amount of time looking at snore data in both SH and Encore trying to sort out just what the VS and VS2 data tells us.

I knew right away (long before SH came out) that the Encore VSI was NOT computed in the same way all the other Encore indices were computed.  In other words, by looking at Encore data, I knew:
    Encore VSI not= (Number of Encore VS events)/(run time)
And this bugged me for a very, very long time: I really wanted to know what the heck that Encore VSI might mean since my Encore VSI varied tremendously from night to night in my early days of PAPing. And after SH came along, the PR snoring data as presented in SH never even came close to matching up with the PR snoring data as presented in Encore. And that also bugged me (and continues to bug me.)

One assumption that I made in doing my analysis is that PR's programmers are privy to information about what the VS2 data actually means and what the criteria for scoring a VS2 snore is.   PR's programmers are the ones who wrote that abomination called Encore, but for its kludginess, Encore does present the Daily Data in a pretty nice format, except for lack of the Flow Rate data being immediately available.  And since sleep docs rely on Encore to evaluate how effective PR machines are treating their patients, I'm inclined to give some real consideration to how Encore presents the snore data.

It took me a very long time to backwards engineer how Encore computes the so-called Encore VSI.  What was clear to me even before JediMark started writing SH was that Encore's VSI was NOT computed in the usual way. In other words:
    Encore VSI not= (Number of Encore VS and/or VS2 events)/(run time)
As soon as JediMark had a test version of SH (SH 0.7ish, if I recall), he had discovered what we now call VS snores, but not VS2 snores. And it quickly became apparent that
    Encore VSI not= (Number of SH VS events)/(run time)
It was also apparent by looking at SH Event Tables and Encore Event Tables, that the VS events JediMark was scoring were NOT the same as the VS events Encore was using in its Event Table and the Encore computation of a VSI.

JediMark kept looking at and analyzing more PR data, and soon found a second type of snore data, what we now call VS2. And the SleepyHead VS2 events in SH match up precisely with the VS events in an Encore Event table. But it was also clear that:
    Encore VSI not= (Number of SH VS2 events)/(run time)

Eventually I figured it out: The numbers attached to each VS2 event are what is used to compute the Encore VSI.  Encore's programmers have chosen to add all the VS2 numbers together and then divide that total by the run time. In other words:
    Encore VSI = (SUM of the numbers attached to each SH VS2 event)/(run time)

All of which raises the question: What is the meaning of the Encore VSI?

And I've hit a bit of a brick wall in trying to answer that question in a definitive manner. I have a working hypothesis for the answer to that question, but I have no way to verify whether my hypothesis is accurate or wildly off the mark.  


Robysue's hypothesis about the SH VS2 numbers and the Encore VSI computation
I strongly suspect the number that is attached to each SH VS2 event is the number of individual breaths in the last two minute window that are considered to be "snores" by the PR xPAP machine.  What criteria the PR xPAPs use to decide that an individual breath is a snore is unknown to me; it's got to be something in the shape of the Flow Rate data, but whatever the subtle changes are, they're not enough to pick out visually.

The main reasons that I've come to the conclusion that those numbers attached to the VS2 events are likely the number of individual snores in a two minute window are:
  • The fact that in a long, persistent stretch of snoring, the VS2's are always scored in two minute intervals, and
  • The maximum VS2's that I see in my data (and others data) seems to be roughly twice the RR rate, and 2*RR = maximum number of breaths in a two minute period.

If my assumption about the meaning of the SH VS2 numbers is correct, then meaning of the Encore VSI also becomes both clear and intuitive. Recall:
    Encore VSI = (SUM of the numbers attached to each SH VS2 event)/(run time)
If the SH VS2 snore numbers are counting individual snores in a two minute window, then
    (SUM of the numbers attached to each SH VS2 event) = total number of snores during the night
and that means
    Encore VSI = the average number of snores per hour of run time
and, since "run time" is a (crude) approximation of "sleep time",
    Encore VSI = approximation of the average number of snores per hour of sleep

Note: Edited to give Sleepy Pete the credit he deserves for noticing that VS2 snores are recorded in two minute intervals. Thanks to palerider for pointing that out to me. :)

Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

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Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Post by Pugsy on Tue May 30, 2017 8:14 am

Larkeg1 wrote:This is very thorough information. I am a newbie and would like to use the sleepyhead software, but, only have a Samsung tablet. Is there a way to use sleepyhead software with my tablet? I am making some progress with CPAP, but, have a 22L/min leak with the Simplus FF mask and an average AHI of 6.4. Have tried 4 different masks within 6 weeks. Thanks for your information


Please start a new thread of your own down on the main forum. Your questions will get lost here.
When you do please include the operating system on the Samsung table and does it have a USB port or slot for SD card available. If it doesn't even if the operating system will work with SH if you can't get the data from the card to the machine it won't work unless you go get a special WiFi card...but I wouldn't do that until I knew if SH worked with the operating system on the tablet. I have no idea what Samsung tablet uses...if Windows yes...it will work. If Android...no.

Also in the new thread post the event category breakdown of that AHI.
How much in each category
Central
Obstructive Apnea
Hyponea
This information is available on another level in your data. You just have to expand the menus. The manual explains where and how to get to it.
https://sleep.tnet.com/home/files/resme ... -guide.pdf

The 22 L/min leak number...that's what we call a 95% leak number which means for 95% of the night you were at OR BELOW that number.
It is NOT an overall average leak. People often forget or don't know about the "or below" part of the definition.
ResMed's line in the sand is 24 L/min...so you are probably okay in terms of leak management as long as the leaks aren't waking you up.
I don't worry about the other 5 % even if it went well above 24 L/min. We don't know how high it went unless you use the software.

So start a new thread devoted to just your questions with the information I ask for included in that new thread then we can better help you.
Most of the veteran forum member won't even read your question up in this old and very long thread which really needs to be a read only thread.

Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Post by Larkeg1 on Tue May 30, 2017 7:54 am

This is very thorough information. I am a newbie and would like to use the sleepyhead software, but, only have a Samsung tablet. Is there a way to use sleepyhead software with my tablet? I am making some progress with CPAP, but, have a 22L/min leak with the Simplus FF mask and an average AHI of 6.4. Have tried 4 different masks within 6 weeks. Thanks for your information

Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:58 pm

My SleepyHead software experience....

I ran a report for my Phillips Respironics BiPAP System One machine. The results did not look correct at all. I then noticed there had been an update to SleepyHead software so I updated, then re-imported my card data. Still wasn't correct. I went to our local DME respiratory company and had them run the data. Wow, am I glad I did. The commercial data software showed I used the machine an average of 2 hours and 10 minutes more per night than SleepyHead software did! I attempted to contact SleepyHead a couple of different ways but their website has a broken link in one area and says under construction using a different link. If a commercial truck driver or pilot used SleepyHead software to submit to their licensing agency they would likely lose their license. Not good. It's best to double check to see if you are getting accurate readings before risking your livelihood.

Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Post by Pugsy on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:58 am

panforte09 wrote:Hi Pugsy
Can you please send sleepyhead program download link? thank you


I just put a new link up on the very top of the very first post on very first page of this thread.

Re: Pugsy's Pointers...SleepyHead Tutorial and TX Hints

Post by panforte09 on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:24 am

Hi Pugsy
Can you please send sleepyhead program download link? thank you

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